MTFCA Forum

I want to share something as a safety reminder that may save someone from an injury.

I just returned from a tour with my '26 Depot Hack in which I suddenly had a steering issue develop that caused a huge amount of stress for me. Below is a brief (-ok, maybe somewhat brief! ) synopsis of what happened.

This car was professionally restored about 12 years ago and has been a veteran of many tours. I have personally driven this vehicle at mph speeds in the higher 40s with a very stable steering, and it has never felt unsafe or scary for me or my kids driving it. Prior to this tour, we did a very thorough nut & bolt check along with packing wheel bearings, replacing 10 year old tubes, and giving the vehicle a thorough check just so we would not have any issues on the tour. Before the tour at the shop, and on the pre-day of the tour, this vehicle was driven some and everything was fine. On the first portion of Day 1's tour, for 30-40 miles, the vehicle steered well just like normal. After lunch we were driving on some rutted sandy roads and I noticed that steering was becoming 'darty' which was a little scary so I slowed down and it seemed to straighten-up. At that point I blamed the erratic handling to the road conditions. Once back on blacktop, the car still wanted to wander slightly but the pavement was not the best, so again I just attributed it to the roads. Then a few miles later as I was making a left-hand turn at a traffic signal, about ½-way thru the turn, the car suddenly made an instant left turn that made my heart stop!! As soon as I 'reeled it in' it seem to steer well again. I pulled over and looked under the front expecting to see a broken/loose wishbone radius rod cap or maybe a loose Steering (Pitman) Arm. Everything looked tight so I cautiously preceded on but I drove it with a death grip on the steering wheel. Once to the hotel, I crawled underneath and could not see anything loose in the steering. I consulted a few experts for ideas who admitted the roads were very rutted and thought that may be it. Again, I found nothing loose after checking nuts & bolts, so I felt they were right about the roads. The next day's steering was about the same in which it would drive well for maybe 15-30 minutes and then suddenly become very loose as it wandered in the road. At that morning's stop, I decided to add a round of toe-in on the tie-rod thinking that would take away the "wandering" in the steering. Once back on the road, I found that adjustment affected nothing. So at lunch, I gobbled my food down and then went out to the car for another look. This time, I layed down in front of the car instead of under it as I had previously done. That is when I found the issue. Have a look at the video I linked below!!

So in a nutshell, it appears the T-3823 leather spring pad that was placed there during the restoration had/has roughly a life of about 12 years before it disintegrated and fell out as we were driving on this tour. Once it was gone, there apparently was enough clearance between the crossmember and the top spring leaf to allow the tie-bolt to jump out of the centering hole during a turn or a bump, and then the spring would suddenly slide to one side of the crossmember which affected the position of the steering connecting rod in relationship to the right steering arm location. The 'fix' for me at that point was to slide the head of the spring's tie-bolt back into the hole in the crossmember, and then tighten the front spring mounting clip nuts. From that point on in the tour, the wandering and occasional violent steering went away. Hopefully my experience will cause someone to be aware of what can happen when these pads become damaged. Maybe someone (i.e.: ME ) can check/replace their leather pad on a regular basis to avoid the potential for a catastrophe when driving.


https://youtu.be/M5m5FW965JE

Wow! I'm glad you found it. I was thinking of several other things which could cause this, but never thought that would be the answer.
Norm

Thanx for the info Brent!

Brent

that is a remarkable story and perhaps even more remarkable discovery (one which I think would have eluded many folks!)

It makes me wonder if perhaps the bolt on the front spring has a non-original "low" head. I know that the correct "tall" headed bolt is a somewhat recent addition to vendor lines. I'm thinking that with the correct height head, things would not/could not go askew...just become perhaps noisy?

What you described came just short of becoming one of the few very very serious accidents I've heard of or witnessed.

Thank God you are OK and thank you for mentioning it to the rest of us...I for one have never heard of such a thing and never gave it any thought, for that matter.

It's a good idea to check the spring clips every few hundred miles. I'd also check that the proper high head center bolt is present and that the hole in the crossmember is in good shape.

The spring clips ought not loosen enough to allow the center bolt to jump out of the locating hole in the crossmember, even if the spring pad was completely gone.

I guess a '16 touring does not have this part. I couldn't find it.

Brent first and foremost I’m elated that you & anyone that was traveling with you are ok. God is great! Now that you have identified this issue and repaired it, I want to thank you for your perseverance in solving the problem and giving me something to check & correct, something I never would have taken the time to even think about. What could have been a terrible outcome & then probably never resolved has become a learning moment. I will be checking in on that once I’m physically able to. Your experience could have possibly saved me from a similar experience. Thank you, best John

Thank you, Brent. I have a 26 coupe I have driven little since acquiring it 15 years ago. I just rebuilt the differential and adjusted the engine. I remember many years ago I made a right turn and it seemed to suddenly oversteer. I have been careful since, but cautious. This gives me something to check as I have never had that sensation with another car. Again, thank you. You may have prevented other accidents and saved a life.

Brent,

Thanks for sharing your experience with everyone.

Have you checked the front crossmember for cracks around the hole where the spring tie bolt sits? I've come across several frames that were either cracked or repaired in that area.

Never heard of the leather pad going bad before. The pad should have compressed to hold tight. Even with a short spring bolt head, the pad would have to be thicker than the bolt head or the mount very loose for the spring to escape.. Professionally restored? By a model T expert?
I wonder if there isnt 1 less leaf that made the spring clamp tighten to the frame, not the spring.

Do follow up with the exact cause. The answer could save other lives.

I guess a '16 touring does not have this part. I couldn't find it.

All years should have it. Part #3823. Check your parts book. It's supposed to be leather, but I cut one from an old tire. It hasn't failed yet.

Just looking at the parts involved - not sure what else was or is supposed to be used on a '26 Depot Hack. I have the large head bolt (got from Bob's) and that does seem to make a difference. Also why the pad change for the front spring clips?

Ed Fuller wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:38 pm

Brent,

Thanks for sharing your experience with everyone.

Have you checked the front crossmember for cracks around the hole where the spring tie bolt sits? I've come across several frames that were either cracked or repaired in that area.

No, but it is in my plans. My issue is I have a full shop at the moment, but when I went back and looked at the pix taken during the restoration, we actually repaired both the front and rear crossmember during the restoration. As you know, this is common on all '30's and older Fords, so we have a piece of brass stock that I machined years ago that we insert into the tie-bolt hole and then weld the crossmember around the square brass to make a perfectly sized square.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:08 pm

Never heard of the leather pad going bad before. The pad should have compressed to hold tight. Even with a short spring bolt head, the pad would have to be thicker than the bolt head or the mount very loose for the spring to escape.. Professionally restored? By a model T expert? I wonder if there isnt 1 less leaf that made the spring clamp tighten to the frame, not the spring.

Do follow up with the exact cause. The answer could save other lives.

Great question about the resto shop. Not sure about them being a "model T expert" though, however they have seen several go thru their shop and the shop owner has owned a Model-T since he was 16. Plus, they also are known for working on brass-era thru 1940's cars, -and presently they have an early Maxwell, a '37 Cord, a '29 Marmon, a '67 Corvette, a couple of Model-Ts along with a few Model-As all getting work done or restored.

As for the one less spring, you make a valid point however if you look closely at the video, it shows that even with the leather(??) pad missing, when I push the spring clip upward with my finger, it still bottoms onto the main leaf without touching (i.e.: bottoming out against) the front crossmember. Additionally, when you look at the spring clip nuts and cotter pins, it is apparent they have been 'undisturbed' for many years, and the nuts were fastened into the proper location as evidenced by the cotter pin holes in relationship to the castle nut grooves. In other words, during the restoration the nuts appear to have been tightened to the location Ford's engineers intended it to be when originally designed and constructed.

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:12 am

Just looking at the parts involved - not sure what else was or is supposed to be used on a '26 Depot Hack. I have the large head bolt (got from Bob's) and that does seem to make a difference. Also why the pad change for the front spring clips?

Frank thank you for pointing this out. I just assumed the missing pad was fabricated from Leather since we recently worked on a '14 and used Leather, however since it is missing at this point I have no idea what material was used during the restoration was it Rubber (-as it should have been), or Leather. I would like to think we would have used what was authentic, but maybe not. Nonetheless, it lasted well over a decade on many, many tours before it failed.

Although I have not seen the head of that tie-bolt in over a decade, my instinct is to say the head is the proper thick head simply because the leather/rubber pad would have prevented a thin head from indexing into the crossmember. I feel certain the spring would have shifted way before now if it were not indexed sufficiently. Again, we will tear into it in the upcoming weeks and know for certain.

Thanks everyone!!

It's possible that the short top or second leaf of your front spring broke in two at the tiebolt and fell out. That would would have the effect of loosening the spring to frame clamps and probably allowed the spring to shift around slightly and begin chewing up the pad, further loosening the assembly. The weight of the vehicle would tend to keep the spring seated properly under ordinary conditions, but driving on loose sand or a rutted/potholed road would increase the forces tending to dislocate the spring and allow the axle assembly to shift to one side or the other. Your axle assembley apparently shifted to one side, then shifted back to center, allowing the tie bolt to seat in the crossmember once again, where it stayed until the next road irregularity forced it out again. I've come across a number of top and second spring leaves from Model T front springs that broke across the tie bolt hole and fell out.

I would suspect that when the chassis was assembled, the head of the bolt was not in the hole in the frame. Maybe just a bit offset. Then the nuts were tightened and when the nut and leather pad were pressed tight, the bottom bracket was tight against the spring and the cotter pins were installed. Then over the years perhaps the leather deteriorated a bit and it became looser. Then when you were driving in the mud and muck, it slid aside and perhaps the leather fell out. This would leave you with the condition you found upon inspection. Yes I would inspect the frame. If it is OK, just replace the leather pad and be sure the head of the bolt is in the hole.
Then be sure to tighten everything and place the cotter pins.
Norm

Glad you're ok. When I got my 1925 roadster last year the front spring was the first thing I replaced as it was off center. Taking it apart I found mine just had dimples that fit into each other rather than a bolt. It had to have been a replacement from a long time ago as the car hadn't run since the 60's. I did use the rubber pad on the new spring.

Just looking at the parts involved - not sure what else was or is supposed to be used on a '26 Depot Hack.

Ford didn't produce depot hacks. I expect the chassis would have the same bolts and pads as any other.

Those pictures appear to be from Snyder's.



This NOS rear spring bolt has a much taller head.



Unfortunately the Ford parts book doesn't have a picture, so I assumed the front spring bolt would match the rear, and made this one.

Brent,
What a great story on your find. I was overhauling the front axle on my ‘24 touring and took the front spring assembly apart only to find the center bolt wore out with no nut on the bottom to tighten the bundle of springs together. Being it is a special bolt, I have one coming. The rubber pad is still there and appears to be in good shape. Also found the leaves really rusty, so I buffed off all the rust and lubed the leaves. I should eliminate a lot of squeaks once it is back together.

It will ride better with cleaned and lubricated springs.