MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:53 am**

I know this has been discussed in the past, but I'd like to get some current thoughts on the topic. I recently bought a '13 touring with its original front axle/wishbone assembly. My intent is to tour with the car once I get it sorted out. I know that the early wishbone attachment on the top of the axle only can potentially be problematic. When I look at other similar cars in the club, about half of the early cars have some type of wishbone reinforcement ranging from rickety to robust. I also see some commercially available bracing kits (Lang's) and other possible solutions (EBay). I'm a purist at heart but I don't want to end up in a ditch. Thoughts? Recommendations? Thanks to all in advance.

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:01 pm**

I'd add a brace or use a later axle assembly and save the early one as-is. The early arrangement was found to be inadequate, and the passage of a century and unknown hours of use haven't improved it.

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:43 pm**

The original wishbone attachment did have it's problems, particularly if you hit a sandy or muddy patch at speed. On good paved roads it is not so much an issue. If you really plan to tour with your car I would consider modifying the axle.

I have a 17 with the upper wishbone attachment. I maintained the original and added a supplementary wishbone attached to the bottom of the axle. Such a "fix" was not uncommon back during the 1920's so adding it is historically correct.

Henry Ford experienced a T going out of control for that reason not far from where I live in the Thumb of Michigan. This article tells what happened to him - I believe the writer may have remembered the year wrong and a failed to remember that the Model T received the improved wishbone in 1919, well before the appearance of the Model A. Also, there is no "Maryland" in our part of Michigan. There is a Marysville but it wasn't founded until 1919. Despite the inaccuracies, you get the gist....

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:45 pm**

DO NOT USE A LATER AXLE ASSY. That’ll be obvious from a block away. Buy this robust bronze support bracket for an additional under axle wishbone. You’ll need a cheap late wishbone (about $15 each) and cut off the ball end to fit. Then grind down the 2 forward ends that fit under the axle to 1/4” so the early castellated nut can be cotter pinned. Some use a thin driveshaft pinion nut here. This will, in effect give you 2 wishbones - an original + underaxle insurance.

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:10 pm**

An under axle wishbone would be at least as obvious.

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:24 pm**

TXGOAT2...???

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 6:44 pm**

I found an old time adaption for this fix on my speedster. The front axle I found had a later under axle wishbone adapted to do the job. They had ground a goove in either side of the ball so it nestled between the arms of over axle wishbone, and fashioned a clamp much like the brass one shown. It was made from a couple of old cultivator points which had the manufacturer's logo stamped in it. Mounting it this way pushed the wishbone well forward at the front. The solution was simple. They cut off the forged ends, flattened the ends of the tubes, and drilled them to fit the perch.

Allan from down under.

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 6:49 pm**

Having once driven a '14 with a shoddy "over axle" wishbone, and nearly getting involved in an accident, I would wholeheartedly encourage you to use the additional wishbone set-up, as described above by George. Even after repairing the original set-up, it still showed further improvement and stability after adding the reinforcement.

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:11 pm**

I used the heavy duty bronze repop pictured in the runabout to the left many years ago with a cut down later wishbone and now need to do the same for the runabout on the right. I think the part came from Califunny but don’t remember where ? Anybody know ?

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:02 pm**

Here is where I got mine: https://www.ebay.com/itm/162767177727?h ... XQDjhQ5wIi
They make several GREAT products and I use their quality mirrors (brass or chrome or black) on my cars.
Here is a link to Antique Model T Sports E-Bay store: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr=1& ... =10&_oac=1

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:47 pm**

One of my first T experiences was running off into the ditch going down the hill maybe 200 yards from my (now) driveway. I don’t know what caused it exactly, the poor road, something I did wrong or what but I explained to the person that I bought most of my parts from at the time what had happened and he sold me an under axle brace. It’s old, angle iron but factory made with a steel clamp and square headed bolt and nut.
My axle had folded under the car, spindle arm was bent like a boomerang. It all happened so suddenly I can’t remember really, that and it’s been almost 30 years. The brace isn’t noticeable. I do always look for them on early cars and they are hard to spot, but what’s easy to spot is an early car with a later front end. I’m a believer in the brace.

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 9:06 pm**

The roads of the past were terrible by today's standards. Yet consider how many Ts were manufactured and driven using the early style wishbone. With today's roads and reasonable driving, I just don't see the need for brace or double wisbone. Most of my cars have been brass era vehicles and the only time my wishbone got bent was from a side impact from a distracted driver. The wishbone wasn't the only piece damaged on the chassis. Even an axle fork and spindle arm were bent. I'm sure a double axle would have suffered the same fate.

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 9:27 pm**

I use the same bronze wishbone clamp pictured by George House. I ground a chamfer on the nut and in the eyelet that attaches under the axle. I also ran a round file thru the castellations on the nuts and rounded the bottom of the notches. That let me easily tighten the nut and install a cotter key.

Here's what it looks like (Upside down)

On the car - unless you know Model T's well, it isn't noticeable.

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2023 10:18 pm**

I got the brace from Lang's that was mentioned above for my 1915 Touring. I do agree that on good roads you could go without it but you never know when a pot hole can sneak up on you and why take a chance You could make one however the Lang's brace looks like original equipment and only a T man would know it's there. It comes primed so you will need to paint it and do not forget to order the thinner nuts......its only a 15 minute install so get it and forget it

Ron

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:09 am**

Thats it Roger ! Thanks ! Looks like price has doubled but that figures in Biden’s inflation.

I’m ordering one today.

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2023 9:25 am**

A wishbone modified with a brace as pictured is glaringly obvious to anyone who looks.
Effective? Yes.

Obvious, yes.

Did Ford ever offer such a device on production cars or as a retrofit?

Just sayin'.

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:47 am**

‘’A wishbone modified with a brace as pictured is glaringly obvious” .... yes, if you slide under the T. I have one - do you ? Walking around the ‘offending “ T it can’t be seen.

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:00 pm**

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 09, 2023 9:25 am
A wishbone modified with a brace as pictured is glaringly obvious to anyone who looks.
Effective? Yes.

Obvious, yes.

Did Ford ever offer such a device on production cars or as a retrofit?

Just sayin'.

So, it's obvious. What of it?

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:10 pm**

Tim, I have to admit. Your set up looks good!

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:21 pm**

Thanks Richard - it's a good system.

I have a over & under wishbone, floating rear safety hubs, disc Brakes, demountable wheels, electric starter, LED lights and a rear brake light. All added for safety and durability. To do so was my choice. I have no issue with people who make different choices about their cars. The argument "If Henry didn't do it" doesn't hold much water with me because we all know he was cheap. What do you think created the huge aftermarket in Model T accessories back in the day? If the cars rolled out of the factory with everything people wanted already installed you wouldn't have had an aftermarket.

Nothing I've done with my Model T has changed the fundamental nature and looks of my car. If the next guy wants to change it back it wouldn't take much to do so. As has been said many times before, "To each his own...."

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:00 pm**

"So, it's obvious. What of it?"

A good question.

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:30 pm**

Jerry, Ford did not offer a retrofit part for the early cars. Ford did recognise there was a problem with the design, and move the wishbone to under the axle. Fitting an aftermarket extra addresses the same need.

As far as this safety fitting looking obtrusive/ugly/noticeable, on a scale of 1-10, I would rate it about 2, compared with rear disc brakes at around 13!

Allan from down under.

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:07 pm**

The obvious over sight in engineering makes a good talking point about the early Model T's when people are viewing your car at car shows. Sort of like the Firestone NON SKID tread and Kingston first double sided key among a thousand others. Just how long can you hold the interest of a 10 year old's Mom?

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:18 pm**

Just how long can you hold the interest of a 10 year old's Mom?

Gene

I think it would depend on whether or not she is divorced and whether or not she thinks you're loaded.

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:44 pm**

In My opinion, safety would win over aesthetics.
Most ordinary people do not even know what a "wishbone" on a model T is. Nor would they know where it is, why it's there, and whether or not it's a piece of original equipment.
Stories on the form have repeatedly reiterated that when they go to a drive in, or gas station, a random stranger drawn to the Model T will often ask, " so what year is this, like a 46'?" Besides, if they ask, it can just be another talking point.
Many people just don't have the in- depth knowledge of a T. To an experienced and well informed T member, yes, the difference would probably be obvious at the first glance, but is it worth the safety risk? We know that have to try and attempt to keep up with modern traffic, we have to drive the T's 30+ MPH, and that naturally puts more stress on things. It would come down to personal preference here, but if you intend to tour the car, safety is important.

*Please note that I have never done this work before, being new to the T's, but after reading what appears to be a (relatively) simple process, safety should be a priority for a soon to be active car on roads that may not be as smooth as glass.

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:50 pm**

Our first T was a 1921 touring, so it had the improved wishbone as standard. The 1915 runabout that I got later to restore had the earlier wishbone, but an old aftermarket wishbone brace installed, similar to the one Oldav8tor showed in his posts. While putting it back together after restoring the car, I was very impressed how much it improved the stability of the front axle once I bolted it on.

When I got our 1911 touring car to restore, it did not have have the wishbone brace, so I bought the pieces that the guy makes for sale that are shown in Oldav8tor's post and picked up a $5 or $10 wishbone last year at Chickasha that you need for the tubes with the eyelets at the end for the installation. With the car all restored and put back together, you barely even notice them IMO. Plus at least they look like the old aftermarket braces.

There were plenty of aftermarket T parts available back in the day. Certainly some better than others. Here is a picture of the aftermarket shocks that were on the 11T when I got it. Even though they can be seen in pictures of our car from 1923 and 1935, I was not going to put those back on. Thankfully Kim Dobbins had some NOS perches that he provided that allowed me to put the car back into the original configuration.

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:25 pm**

NealW wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:50 pm
Our first T was a 1921 touring, so it had the improved wishbone as standard. The 1915 runabout that I got later to restore had the earlier wishbone, but an old aftermarket wishbone brace installed, similar to the one Oldav8tor showed in his posts. While putting it back together after restoring the car, I was very impressed how much it improved the stability of the front axle once I bolted it on.

When I got our 1911 touring car to restore, it did not have have the wishbone brace, so I bought the pieces that the guy makes for sale that are shown in Oldav8tor's post and picked up a $5 or $10 wishbone last year at Chickasha that you need for the tubes with the eyelets at the end for the installation. With the car all restored and put back together, you barely even notice them IMO. Plus at least they look like the old aftermarket braces.

There were plenty of aftermarket T parts available back in the day. Certainly some better than others. Here is a picture of the aftermarket shocks that were on the 11T when I got it. Even though they can be seen in pictures of our car from 1923 and 1935, I was not going to put those back on. Thankfully Kim Dobbins had some NOS perches that he provided that allowed me to put the car back into the original configuration.

Neal,

Those are the same make as shock absorbers that have been known to break. It was one of those shocks that broke off and essentially killed Ken Meek many years ago. I'm very happy that you don't intend to use them. I'd be happier still if I knew they were destroyed.

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:00 am**

I for one would say that adding an over under is a great idea should you plan on actually driving an early car.

The original design was thought to be good for the first million or so...perhaps a few knuckled under when trying to climb down like a goat...but the story goes (in the age before recalls) that Ford took the reports as wives tales or improper operation and it was only when an over the topper collapsed on him personally did he finally tell the engineers to do something about it.

In engineering terms, has anyone ever done a statics diagram review of that seemingly factory 'quick fix' that stayed permanent?

Just looking at the geometry with a ruler and some mental math...IF we could call the restraining force offered by a top only arrangement an arbitrary 100...and if we could call the under the bottom a derived 200 because the lug end of the tubes is EXACTLY twice as far from a potential knuckle point as the over the top location...then having both would render a 300 (meaning 3x more restraining force)?? Thats not an insignificant change...just sayin'

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Early wishbone reinforcement

Early wishbone reinforcement

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