Welding connecting rods

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Les Schubert
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Welding connecting rods

Post by Les Schubert » Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:09 pm

In the past I have seen people weld T and A rods together when doing the A crank in a T block conversion. I have not heard of any failures of this. Obviously you want a competent and skilled welder.
I broach this because my friend is working on the Chevy crank project. Perhaps this is a option to consider!


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Erik Barrett » Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:28 pm

I have two A crank engines with shortened A rods using 292 Ford V8 pistons. It can be done successfully.


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:49 pm

Pure personal opinion, and not disparaging anyone who has chosen to do it ...

For the $$ and time spent for such a conversion, I'd sure be inclined to have custom rods made. I don't think just getting a refund and an apology for a failed rod would quite cover the damage a weld-failure would entail. I guess there are plenty in service, and I have zero knowledge of a single failure, but they wouldn't be in anything I owned. To each his own, I suppose...same reason I don't sky-dive. Not many failures, but they do happen, even if they don't make my local paper and I'm blissfully unaware. I know some welders, and they're top-flight certified folks, but still, I would never ask them to do this sort of job much less use it.

As far as them being done successfully, I fully admit that it can be done and has been done. But, just like jumping across the Snake River Canyon in a Hydrogen Peroxide rocket can end in a survivable crash, I just wouldn't do it personally, nor think it was the best idea. ;)
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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by John E. Guitar » Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:51 pm

There was a failure of this setup in Sydney last year. The broken rod took out the side of the block. This was after 30 years of hard driving. I'll see if I can get some photos.


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Fri Mar 10, 2023 5:59 pm

Hey there Les,
If you recall I took you for a spin in my speedster while on the national tour in Whitefish, MT bout 10 years ago. This motor has shortened A rods with center web removed and boxed. I have done a couple sets, and my dad has done a couple hybrid T/A sets. It’s a ton of work… but not sure it’s any more work than making new rods would be. I stopped considering how to make new rods as soon as SCAT started… maybe it’s time to rethink…🤔


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Les Schubert » Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:39 pm

I am not personally planning to do this. I happen to have a set of the cast aluminum rods that were offered for the A crank in a T block conversion some years ago. I have acquired a set of rod shells and am considering using them in the 2up 2 down crank engine project. I’m not sure that I will get to this project but you never know!!


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:09 pm

My dad just so happens to be pushing me to make up a set of T/A rods right now. I’ll try to add some pics of the process to this thread as I go…

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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:30 pm

Why are you not using the stock 1925/1926/1927/1928 Chevy crank with rods (Modify with dippers). Use Chevy 265 CI stock pistons/rings with bushings on the wrist pins. Quit complicating it!


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:50 pm

Is he back…?!😲


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Les Schubert » Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:38 pm

Henry
That is very interesting. So 265 pistons will fit?


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:06 am

I hear the deck height is about right and 3-3/4” bore too… but I’ve never seen a chebby piston with a dome. Compression ratio may suffer…


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:09 am

Aluminum rods. Reminds me of a 1930 Franklin I had when I was in my teens. A guy in a Plymouth wanted to drag. That was the end of my Franklin. It went to the wrecking yard after one of the stock aluminum rods broke.
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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:06 am

To correct the compression ratio, simple as the old school racers did, make your own dome out of billet aluminum an attach from the bottom by means of machine screws, drill and tap the added dome(about 8 total per piston). You can buy brand new NOS piston and rings (8 total) on eBay for like $100.00.

No I am not back so to say, heard about this and did not want others to attempt the over engineering when it does not have to be.

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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:08 am

I’ve always been creeped out by the idea of bolting slugs to the top of my pistons. Sumpin about potential failure points coming loose in the combustion chamber and destroying the piston/head/block. Have to admit that I’ve never done it before… so maybe just paranoia holding me back. But as I understand, a stiffer connecting rod will have less deflection under load preventing crank deflection and so can prevent some harmonics and even prevent crank breakage, especially in an engine absent a harmonic balancer. Welding up rods carry’s it’s own risk, so does bolting slugs to your pistons, so does operating an engine beyond its designed parameters. We all take the risks we are comfortable with…

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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by BRENT in 10-uh-C » Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:18 am

Scott_Conger wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:49 pm
Pure personal opinion, and not disparaging anyone who has chosen to do it ...

For the $$ and time spent for such a conversion, I'd sure be inclined to have custom rods made. I don't think just getting a refund and an apology for a failed rod would quite cover the damage a weld-failure would entail. I guess there are plenty in service, and I have zero knowledge of a single failure, but they wouldn't be in anything I owned. To each his own, I suppose...same reason I don't sky-dive. Not many failures, but they do happen, even if they don't make my local paper and I'm blissfully unaware. I know some welders, and they're top-flight certified folks, but still, I would never ask them to do this sort of job much less use it.

As far as them being done successfully, I fully admit that it can be done and has been done. But, just like jumping across the Snake River Canyon in a Hydrogen Peroxide rocket can end in a survivable crash, I just wouldn't do it personally, nor think it was the best idea. ;)
To expound on what Scott is saying, the best method IMO is to have R&R make you a set of connecting rods. They will make a rod that in function operates just like a Briggs & Stratton air-cooled engine where there is not a cast or inserted bearing at the crankshaft. Just the aluminum rod riding directly on the crankshaft journal. For the ones who might say that will never work, this company has some of these connecting rods in 800 hp 4 cylinder turbocharged Honda cars running around the streets that have 30k-40k miles on them!

How you go about having them made is you use a stock Model-A rod and shorten it to the correct length and tack weld it back together. Use a body filler (i.e.: Bondo) to add mass to the beams on each side, and sand it smooth. Once you have the shape that clears everything as you rotate the crank 360°, then you send the rod sample to them and they will digitize the shape and then CNC the rod out of aluminum.

https://www.rrconnectingrods.com/


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Les Schubert » Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:29 pm

I would be ok with running aluminum rods directly on the crank if the engine was full pressure oiled. I realize it is done in little 2 stroke engines but their life expectancy is short and they are typically not high HP in my experience.


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Les Schubert » Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:33 pm

Another option is to cast a set of custom pistons. I have gone down this path for a 6 cylinder Scripps marine engine. Fortunately we have a piston cam grinder available locally.
For material we used other aluminum pistons (they are a special alloy that is not readily available.


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Dave1 » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:52 pm

I have experience with this, as I had a small engine shop for a number years. Briggs & Stratton used the aluminum rod design without a bearing on most of their engines up to 28 hp.
These engines single and twin cylinders are governed at 3250 rpm.It was not uncommon to see them with 400 hrs on the meter.
The majority failures we saw were caused by running out of oil.

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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by JohnH » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:53 pm

Les Schubert wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:09 pm
I have not heard of any failures of this.
Unfortunately I have, and it happened to a car in the club only a few years ago. I believe there's a hole in the crankcase and the conrod went into the side of the alternator. It was an early Model A crank conversion, done before the custom made one piece conrods became available.

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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by BRENT in 10-uh-C » Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:16 am

Les Schubert wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:29 pm
I would be ok with running aluminum rods directly on the crank if the engine was full pressure oiled. I realize it is done in little 2 stroke engines but their life expectancy is short and they are typically not high HP in my experience.


Ummm Les, don't fool yourself with the horsepower or lack of longevity using a splash oiling system. Below is my son's Briggs engine that reliably made about 30 horse on methanol. Life expectancy on an older iron B&S air cooled engine was 1500 hours. Even if you cut that back to 1,000 hours at 25 mph, that is still about 25,000 miles. From my experiences with these rods, the cast Model-T main bearings will have deteriorated before the aluminum rod has. And remember, these aluminum rods are rebuildable by cutting the cap and resizing the hole.

BlakesDigger.jpg
BlakesEngine1.jpg
BlakesEngine2.jpg


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:10 pm

Splash oiling effectiveness is much improved through the use of synthetic multi-grade oil. At extreme RPM, "troughing" of the oil in rod troughs could become a problem, and draft from the crankshaft might also affect oil distribution. The advantages of synthetic multigrade oil and lightweight pistons and rods offset the disadvantages of a splash system to a considerable degree, besides the advantages of a stiffer crankshaft.

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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by David Greenlees » Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:13 pm

The cast aluminum rods made today and in the past usually use a standard 356 aluminum alloy. Our shop has machined and used 356 alloy for split splash-lubed cam bearings in several large slow-speed-low-load (up to 600 CI) early prewar road and vintage racing cars with just as good a result as those machined of SAE bearing bronze.

An aluminum-silicon alloy is used in engine bearings in some modern high-speed auto engines. These bi-metal steel/backed aluminum insert bearings have produced excellent results in high-speed motors. When fed clean filtered oil in low-to-moderate-load applications (a standard T engine rod bearing only has to handle five HP.) The harder silicon in the mix polishes the crankshaft and wipes debris out of the way. These bearings have improved embeddability for dirt particles that do not flush out of the bearing and can handle larger pieces of engine debris than a tri-layer bearing can.

The cast aluminum rods in small engines made today, and in the past with splash or pressure, oiling are usually cast 356 aluminum alloy. I've machined and used 356 alloys for use with un-filtered oil for split splash-lubed cam bearings in several small, medium, and large (up to 600 CI Simplex) early prewar road and vintage racing car engines with just as good a result as those machined of SAE bearing bronze, or others lined with babbitt.

I plan on using 4000 series aluminum-silicon alloy for machined main and rod bearing inserts on one of my own early engines in the near future. In light of the successful use of the alloy for engine bearings, I am confident they will work well.

Follow this link to Clevite engine bearings to learn more about aluminum-silicon bearings @ https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/media ... ochure.pdf


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Les Schubert » Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:32 pm

About 45 years ago I shortened a A crank by welding. That engine reved to 4200 rpm and would push the car to 100 mph. It is still running STRONG! Another club member who had a “penchant” for copying my ideas but refused to consult on the details, built his own, and the flange stayed attached for 140 miles!!
The “devil is in the details”!!


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:39 pm

Some people (not me) could weld a beerbottle to a brick. Some, but not many.


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:49 pm

Here is a couple pics of todays progress. Apparently my old rod fixture was lost in dads recent move… so made a new fixture this morning, and started putting pieces together 👍
C5DA9E19-F06E-4925-8673-9FF97ABB6329.jpeg
75850CEE-2BB1-4EAC-951E-41BD8C8AFDF3.jpeg


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Les Schubert » Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:29 pm

Kevin
I trust there’s another picture to come??(tomorrows progress)?


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:00 pm

Not too sure bout the timeline… but this should be a fairly quick project. My dad should be cutting the other 3 rods while I’m at work tomorrow, and I may be able to get all 4 to this stage over the next couple of days. Once all are to this point, I will rough balance, then start on the boxing plates

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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by BRENT in 10-uh-C » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:41 am

Les, I used to have a picture of a 'rod press' that was used to compact a Model-A rod. Evidently, the rod was heated and then the jig was on a sliding post where the rod was placed into a hydraulic press and then the rod was compacted to the correct length.

Kevin, I like your method of removing the section between the beams and then adding a continuous piece to make a solid beam.


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Dan McEachern » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:50 pm

Pretty sure the concept of compressing A connecting A connecting rods was covered in an old Vintage Ford article in the '70's on an engine built by Ellis Gray that was in his '24 roadster and ran at the Long Beach Hill Climb.


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:46 pm

BRENT in 10-uh-C wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:41 am
Kevin, I like your method of removing the section between the beams and then adding a continuous piece to make a solid beam.
The center web is removed to lighten the rod. Next I will cut 2 16ga steel “boxing” plates that will be welded to each side of the rod, creating a rectangular tube section where the I beam was. The boxing plates create a massive weld surface area compared to simply welding the I beam back together. I would be curious to see how the failed rods mentioned above were shortened, and also hear how and who welded em.


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:52 pm

My dad pressed a set of rods a while back… after a complete rebuild, we found that the block deck was about .090” shorter than it should have been, causing the top ring to peek out of the block at TDC. A simple angle iron jig, some localized heat, and a hydraulic press yielded a set of needed length rods with an earthworm looking bulge up near the wrist pin. Not sure I would try squishing the rods much more than an 1/8” tho. No doubt the folks back in the 70’s were trying to use an off the shelf piston, and just needed a small adjustment. If using the stock T piston with an A crank, an A rod would have to be squished 5/8” shorter and then the small end bushed to fit the T piston


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:15 am

Only got in an hour tonite. Just enough time to fit 2 more rods and weld up the edges. Occasional adjustment is required to align the edges of the rods, so cut down the middle of the web, and spread when hot. I’m also filling the oil holes as the original holes would have broke into the now boxed section of the rod. Will need to drill new oil holes after the welding is complete. Preheat, wire brush, preheat, weld, post heat.
B8E0FBFB-9B81-45D5-B9E3-5185A13E236E.jpeg


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Les Schubert » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:53 am

Impressive!!
Thank you


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Dave1 » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:53 pm

Kevin, Interesting wondering what type of welding you are using, Mig, Tig or ?

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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Les Schubert » Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:36 pm

I would assume TIG
Having just done a 30 hour TIG class that is what I would do


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:09 pm

Definitely TIG! No other (regularly available) welding process can produce the same level of weld quality. Of course it’s not just about the welding machine… it’s up to the welder to ensure proper cleanliness, weld penetration, joint design, filler materials, and shielding gas. The rods are essentially “chromoly”… so pre/post heating and using er70s-2 filler rod. I have always used mild sheet steel for the boxing plates, and will likely do so this time as well


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Les Schubert » Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:17 pm

Kevin
Thank you for the information. Much appreciated.


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Dave1 » Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:51 pm

Kevin , can’t wait to see the final project


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:11 pm

Will keep posting pics as I make progress. These rods aren’t mine so they need to get done and gone! Hoping to make some noticeable progress this weekend


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:32 pm

Made some progress today;

With all the rods shortened and webs removed, I V grooved the inside of the weld joint and welded from the inside. Also did a rough balancing job which required some grinding, and some adding of weight;
A44C7B6D-48DE-47F5-AE56-C423000D026B.jpeg
Next was cutting the boxing plates;
F2BA18BC-F36C-4A62-8A13-B212158B54C7.jpeg
Tacking together;
D1B04085-2463-476C-8471-26F717B99219.jpeg
And final welding;
E5D11629-EA65-4614-95DE-AB797BDC5DC4.jpeg


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Dave1 » Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:57 pm

Looks good Kevin, why do you remove the inner web? is it a weight issue?

Dave Eddie


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:35 pm

With the center web removed, the boxed and welded rod now weighs within a few grams of what the original donor components weighed
42622E6E-A169-4034-948E-3F25E34A2264.jpeg


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Dave1 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:24 pm

Any heating required, before or after welding ?

Dave Eddie


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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:49 pm

Dave1 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:24 pm
Any heating required, before or after welding ?
I follow typical chromoly welding practices. Preheat to above 300F and TIG weld with er70s-2 filler rod. I post heat when welding the 2 rod pieces together as the part chills pretty fast. But when welding the boxing plates, the whole part is near dull red when finished, and cools evenly in still air

I’m about 4 hours into the shortening fixture, and 8-10 hours into the machining, fitting, and welding of all 4 rods. Not a huge or complicated project, but attention to detail is important. The next step will be assembling the big end of the rods, straightening, and pre-machining for babbit. The shortening fixture references the parting seam of the rod… and the big end bores are not always where they should be


Topic author
Les Schubert
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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Les Schubert » Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:15 pm

Very nice. Thank you for sharing


Dave1
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Re: Welding connecting rods

Post by Dave1 » Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:28 pm

Very informative, thanks again.

Dave Eddie

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