Waking up a Sleepy T

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Model T Ron
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Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:06 pm

I have had my 1924 Coup for about a month now but prior she was not used much for the last 4 years. The first thing I did was remove the package shelf and move the seat back 5 inches. This took a bit longer than expected as I found some wood rot that needed to be fixed... It was a bit of work but well worth the gained legroom. Then it was on to find why she was hard to start and just did not sound right. The Carb was a little rich and the plugs were all carboned up. I had a high compression head so I decided to pull the original head off. What I found was excessive carbon and when I checked the spark plug gap it was at .018 well below the .032 that they needed to be at. I cleaned everything up, gaped the plugs and now she starts very EZ.

I know the engine and transmission were rebuilt and still need break-in but what I am find is she is rather loud when in 2nd gear compared to my 1915 Touring. I think some of this is due to being a closed car but not all of it. Would rebuilt running gear be noisy or do I need to look into this? The noise is definitely coming from the transmission. When my 15 is in second and going about 30 all I gear is the clicking of the engine and just about no noise from the transmission.

The 24 Coupe needs more miles but I am also finding that something might be wrong with the timer. When I play with the spark advance do get some very strong acceleration but it does not seem to be repeatable all the time. If anyone can share some info on timer maintenance I would appreciate it.

Thanks
Ron


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:11 pm

I'd expect some transmission noise in low, but not high. Is it possible you have a tight band? Rear axle noise can sound like it's coming from the transmission. I don't know how much is normal. My car has some gear noise from about 36 to 39 MPH. I think it's the rear axle. It never changes, so I assume it's OK. I believe a closed car would make any mechanical noise more noticeable, especially with the windows up. If the car has any missing interior trim, like a floor mat or headliner or any other trim item, it will make it a lot louder. I would not think moving the seat back would make it noisier, as long as all trim was replaced and as much bare metal and flooring was covered as practical.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:20 pm

Thanks Pat
You may have hit on something with tight bands. When I am letting up on the clutch to go into second it catches at the very high end of travel. My 15 catches second a tad over the neutral position. I do find it strange that the 24 catches at the top......is this an indication of not being adjusted right?


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:20 pm

Oil the timer with light oil, and carefully check the wiring around the timer for any evidence of chaffing. Erratic response to the spark lever sould be a timer issue, a wiring issue, slack or binding in the linkage, or some problem with the timer itself.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:25 pm

I believe high should begin to engage just after the pedal is about halfway up and before the pedal is all the way up, or the lever all the way forward. The pedal should have a very slight amount of free play when fully released.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:30 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:25 pm
I believe high should begin to engage just after the pedal is about halfway up and before the pedal is all the way up, or the lever all the way forward. The pedal should have a very slight amount of free play when fully released.
Mine is setup so that its in neutral from the normal mid position all the way up to about 95% having second engage in the top 5%. What do I need to do to adjust this properly?


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:11 pm

I suggest consulting the Ford service manual, and there are also some good discussions on this board about the adjustment procedure. It's not terribley difficult. Pictures do help. It sounds to me like your linkage does need adjustment. It may be that the bands also need adjustment, which is not difficult, but must be done the right way.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:46 pm

Is the Ford Service Manual online do I need to purchase a copy? I did adjust the 1st gear band on my 15 and it was rather simple. To be honest I have no clue why 2nd is engaging at the top end of the pedal on the 24 Coupe or how to adjust it back down a bit.

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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:37 pm

I would guess the Service Manual is probably on the Cimorelli website, but I prefer an actual physical book to keep in the shop. It's available from the parts dealers. I believe there's also a large print version.

Maybe I have some timer suggestions, maybe not. Depends on what kind of timer it is.
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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Duey_C » Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:39 am

Cimorelli.com should work just fine for a digital copy. Paper copy is best so we can get it dirty.
http://cimorelli.com/mtdl/servicemanual/default.htm
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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:41 am

Thank you for the link......I will print them out so I can see them a little better. Sounds like I need to look at the bands and adjust the linkage as 2nd should not engage in the top 5% of travel when letting the clutch up. I am realizing now just how well my 15 touring was setup when I got her a few years back. My 24 Coupe is a beautiful car but she needs a little TLC. I am hoping the noise in second will go away with proper adjustment. Then its on to figure out why the response on the spark adjustment is not consistent. I was impressed with the acceleration when the timing was working but I need that to be the case all the time :D


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:28 am

Ron

re: irregular spark adjustment

many "T"s which have been gone through, have had the lower steering bracket removed from the steering shaft to replace the bushing...when this is done, the rivet which holds the timer's bell crank has to come off. An awful lot of folks just replace that bell crank and stuff a cotter pin into the rivet hole. This leaves a ton of slop and you can not get anything to happen without an excessive amount of lever travel for only a small amount of timer travel. If you never know where your timer is ending up or timing is not responsive, this is the very first place to look
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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TWrenn » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:29 am

I wonder if the reason for the "last 5%" til engagement could mean the 3 clutch fingers are out of adjustment?

I've only driven the car twice myself, sadly the last time was for the previous owners funeral, and unfortunately I can't remember how "it felt" popping it into high (what you refer to as 2nd.). Almost sounds like you're "riding the clutch pedal" from low to high also? I just take my foot off the pedal when ready to "pop it" into high from low speed, which is what I recall is somewhere in the ford driving instructions. Plus, you need to "rev it" plenty too in so doing. Just a thought.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by John kuehn » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:43 am

Getting the Ford service manual, and other publications regarding the different aspects of a T is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED !
It’s amazing what you can find out about a T when you READ THE INSTRUCTIONS. A hard copy of the Ford Service manual is the best thing to use when getting advice about a T. And of course the forum helps.

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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Mark Nunn » Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:48 am

I want to add to Scott's comments about the bell crank attachment. I had too little timer travel. I found that my bell crank was not drilled with its rivet hole 90 degrees to the timer rod hole. The bell crank was tilted too far toward the frame to move the timer adequately. I flipped the bell crank and it works much better now with the timer rod hole closer to the engine.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:54 pm

TWrenn wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:29 am
I wonder if the reason for the "last 5%" til engagement could mean the 3 clutch fingers are out of adjustment?

I've only driven the car twice myself, sadly the last time was for the previous owners funeral, and unfortunately I can't remember how "it felt" popping it into high (what you refer to as 2nd.). Almost sounds like you're "riding the clutch pedal" from low to high also? I just take my foot off the pedal when ready to "pop it" into high from low speed, which is what I recall is somewhere in the ford driving instructions. Plus, you need to "rev it" plenty too in so doing. Just a thought.
Hey Tim
I think its a linkage adjustment as mentioned above. When I first got into the car I worked the clutch to find neutral when it was not running and it did not have a distinctive feel like my 15 Touring has...... I know what your thinking but I do have a few thousand miles on my 15 and driving it is second nature to me. When I got it started I pushed down firmly (But not hard) and it felt right going in low. This Saturday I went for my first drive after oiling and greasing everything up. I do just take my foot off to go into high but when standing still neutral is from the normal position to just about taking my foot off the clutch. I am sure its something minor but I would like to understand why she is so loud in high....its not as loud as low but its much louder than my 15 in high as that car has just about no transmission noise in high. As for the spark adjustment I am going to take the advice above and do a little more looking around and I will get a service manual.

Driving the 24 Coupe was rather interesting......when the advance was working she had excellent acceleration but it was hit or miss when working the spark lever. As for moving the seat back it was amazing to drive. At 6'3'' I never drove a T with so much leg room.....5'' made a huge difference in comfort. I did not put the RM Brakes on yet and boy that's not for me.......its all engine braking until your just about moving. I am not that brave to drive without wheel brakes in traffic :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:24 pm

Steve Jelf wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:37 pm
I would guess the Service Manual is probably on the Cimorelli website, but I prefer an actual physical book to keep in the shop. It's available from the parts dealers. I believe there's also a large print version.

Maybe I have some timer suggestions, maybe not. Depends on what kind of timer it is.
:)
Steve
I am open to suggestions. Below is a photo of what is on my 24 Coupe and I have no clue as to what kind of timer it is.

Thanks
Ron
Attachments
T1.jpg

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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:43 am

Too dark. I can't tell what it is. If it's a roller timer (Ford, Tiger, others) the common problems are: 1 weak or broken spring; 2 roller "wallered out" on its little axle, causing it to wobble; 3 the track worn unevenly, causing the roller to bounce and skip.
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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:07 am

I still need to see if I have a loose wire but I see that Lang's has a Tiger Timer for $85. Should I need to replace it what is the best available to us today?


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:19 am

Mark Nunn wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:48 am
I want to add to Scott's comments about the bell crank attachment. I had too little timer travel. I found that my bell crank was not drilled with its rivet hole 90 degrees to the timer rod hole. The bell crank was tilted too far toward the frame to move the timer adequately. I flipped the bell crank and it works much better now with the timer rod hole closer to the engine.
Mark
If anything I have to much travel. When you pull the spark lever all the way down the timer hits the leather belt.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:18 am

You do not have too much travel...you have too long of a fan belt, and to adjust it correctly, the fan has to go to high and swing toward the passenger (timer) side to accommodate the extra length. Put on the correct belt and your timer fouling on the belt will go away.

At 30+ MPH you will need all that travel which is now crashing into the belt.
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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by speedytinc » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:45 am

Your timer requires constant maintenance. I believe every 300 miles. A drop of oil before each run. Again, the service manual has the details.
Get used to removing the unit & cleaning. The contact ring must be round & smooth or at higher speeds the roller will jump causing progressively poorer running. The roller's pin must be tight. Minimum roller slop. The spring must have enough tension to make good, consistent contact.

Is the motor timed correctly? Look @ the roller/brush mount. Under the 3/4" nut, there should be a pin & retaining washer. That pin correctly times it to the cam. It need not be there. Clamping the nut down will hold the brush without the pin. If missing the pin & not lined up with the pin hole, timing will be off.

Do you have full travel with the advance lever & is it pinned tight? Answered yes, too much.
Now confirm correct firing time. Turn the motor to where the pulley pin is 15 degrees past horizontal. About 3:30 & 9:30.
Disconnect the timer rod. Turn the timer counter clockwise some. Turn on the battery ignition. Rotate the timer clockwise until a coil starts buzzing.
Turn off ign. With the spark lever all the way up, the timer rod should be in position to line up with the timer hole. If not, bend the rod so it does line up.
Correct timing position may gain some belt clearance. I suspect you are set over retard. Explains excessive carbon & not getting enough advance until you hit the belt.

Roller timers were OEM.
I prefer New day's with a carbon brush. New day timer's require no oil leaking in, so a modern seal is needed.
Less cleaning/maintenance.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:32 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:18 am
You do not have too much travel...you have too long of a fan belt, and to adjust it correctly, the fan has to go to high and swing toward the passenger (timer) side to accommodate the extra length. Put on the correct belt and your timer fouling on the belt will go away.

At 30+ MPH you will need all that travel which is now crashing into the belt.
Scott
I think your 100% correct. I was just playing with the car in my shop and the timer works without issue......it's the belt retarding the timing after I advance it. This may also explain some of the noise as the car is lugging the transmission once the belt retards the timing when going about 30 mph. Could this explain why I had excellent acceleration followed by poor performance :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol: :D

I do appreciate you pointing this out. So by any chance do you have a photo of what the belt should look like? What is the correct size belt? Thanks
Last edited by Model T Ron on Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:36 pm

With no waterpump, AND the correct crank and fan pulleys, you can rely on suppliers catalogues (for your year T) to get the right belt.

However, you do not know if you have the correct pulleys, so lower the fan until the side of the belt fully clears a fully advanced timer...now wrap a string around everything and measure the string...that's your belt length.
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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:34 pm

Yep belt should be 27 inches and I have 31 plus.......I have a feeling she will run better without having the belt hitting the timer :roll: :roll: :lol:

Scott I do appreciate you saving me some time sorting this out. I always like to talk to experts on hear and someday I hope to be one :D


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:27 am

Oh, you will Ronald, you will!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:48 am

Those Ts are all the same. They're all black, and Henry Ford was a tightwad who paid the workers 5 cents a day and made them eat broccoli!


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:39 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:11 pm
I suggest consulting the Ford service manual, and there are also some good discussions on this board about the adjustment procedure. It's not terribley difficult. Pictures do help. It sounds to me like your linkage does need adjustment. It may be that the bands also need adjustment, which is not difficult, but must be done the right way.
Pat
I did get a copy of the Service Manual and I now know why people call it the Model T Bible. The linkage was off quite a bit and after adjustment it feels just like my 15 Touring..... Not 100% sure if the low band needed adjustment so I backed it off a half a turn and if need be I can change it back. Also got the correct size belt on. If the rain holds off I will take the 24 for a test drive after work on Tuesday.

Any chance the linkage could be the source of my noise in high gear or is this just wishful thinking?

Thanks
Ron


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:18 pm

I guess it's possible. It clearly was way out of adjustment. Some people here are very experienced with Model T transmissions, and could probably offer a more informed opinion than I can.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:41 am

Quite possibly, the noise in high gear is rear axle noise transmitting up the drive line and coming out of the transmission like a stereo speaker. If that is the case then some of that noise is possibly audible during low gear but is combining with the perfectly normal low gear noise and is not as noticeable.

I mention this as there really is nothing in the transmission that can normally make noise in high gear as everything is locked up and solid.
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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by speedytinc » Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:12 am

Adjusting low band to its optimal maximum.
With the motor running, parking brake applied & blocked. Back off the low adjustment(you already have?)
Tighten the adjuster until you just start to hear the triple gears start to change tone. Back off 1/2 turn & lock the nut.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:13 pm

I took the 24 Coupe for a test drive and the clutch feels exactly like my 15 Touring so at least that's fixed but the noise did not go away. I think Scott is right about it being axle noise amplified through the transmission. Got the car up to 30 on a flat road and let off the gas and the noise was not so loud but still apparent. Then I put her in neutral and the sound was exactly the same so it looks like a axle rebuild is in my future.

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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TWrenn » Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:59 pm

Model T Ron wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:13 pm
I took the 24 Coupe for a test drive and the clutch feels exactly like my 15 Touring so at least that's fixed but the noise did not go away. I think Scott is right about it being axle noise amplified through the transmission. Got the car up to 30 on a flat road and let off the gas and the noise was not so loud but still apparent. Then I put her in neutral and the sound was exactly the same so it looks like a axle rebuild is in my future.
Might only be gear lash noise? Not an expert in rear end rebuilding, but I do remember after having my '20 rear end rebuilt there was some, and eventually it got a bit quieter as it wore in. My '13 I think has a similar noise from the rear end, can't describe it of course, but doesn't seem to be bothersome. Over 10K miles on it. I'd not jump into it right away. As I recall Ron I yanked on the wheels for Joe when he got it and there was no "outplay" on them at all, so presumably they already have at least the bronze thrust washer anyway. Of course only one way to know for sure.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:17 pm

TWrenn wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:59 pm
Model T Ron wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:13 pm
I took the 24 Coupe for a test drive and the clutch feels exactly like my 15 Touring so at least that's fixed but the noise did not go away. I think Scott is right about it being axle noise amplified through the transmission. Got the car up to 30 on a flat road and let off the gas and the noise was not so loud but still apparent. Then I put her in neutral and the sound was exactly the same so it looks like a axle rebuild is in my future.
Might only be gear lash noise? Not an expert in rear end rebuilding, but I do remember after having my '20 rear end rebuilt there was some, and eventually it got a bit quieter as it wore in. My '13 I think has a similar noise from the rear end, can't describe it of course, but doesn't seem to be bothersome. Over 10K miles on it. I'd not jump into it right away. As I recall Ron I yanked on the wheels for Joe when he got it and there was no "outplay" on them at all, so presumably they already have at least the bronze thrust washer anyway. Of course only one way to know for sure.
Tim
I need to do some more investigating. The axle condition looks like it has not been apart for some time and the surface looks like it could use a media blast down to bare metal and refinishing. The oil I took out of it was very black and thick so it may just be time for a little TLC. I have never rebuilt a Model T Axle but I did do one on my Model A and it was not that bad. Flipping through the Service manual it looks like detailed instructions are available.

What parts did you replace on your 20 T when rebuilding the axle?

Thanks
Ron


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:31 pm

Some rear axle noise is probably normal. The Model T has none of the engineering improvements that later cars had, such as spiral bevel ring and pinion, heavier construction, more anti-friction bearings, and so forth that allowed for smoother and quieter gear set operation. The Model T lacks any rubber isolation between the axle, springs, chassis, and body, and it lacks any body insulation to mitigate mechanical noises. Beyond that, the four four cylinder engine lacks any counterbalancing, and it lacks any kind of harmonic damper, either at the engine or the clutch or anywhere in the driveline. It's a wonder they run as quiet as they do. My car has a noise between about 36 and 39 MPH in high which I'm pretty sure is is in the rear axle. It hasn't changed in thousands of miles of driving, and while it might be possible to build up an axle that was quieter, it probably would not be silent at all speeds, and it might make more noise, or make noise across a broader speed range, than the one I have.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:49 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:31 pm
Some rear axle noise is probably normal. The Model T has none of the engineering improvements that later cars had, such as spiral bevel ring and pinion, heavier construction, more anti-friction bearings, and so forth that allowed for smoother and quieter gear set operation. The Model T lacks any rubber isolation between the axle, springs, chassis, and body, and it lacks any body insulation to mitigate mechanical noises. Beyond that, the four four cylinder engine lacks any counterbalancing, and it lacks any kind of harmonic damper, either at the engine or the clutch or anywhere in the driveline. It's a wonder they run as quiet as they do. My car has a noise between about 36 and 39 MPH in high which I'm pretty sure is is in the rear axle. It hasn't changed in thousands of miles of driving, and while it might be possible to build up an axle that was quieter, it probably would not be silent at all speeds, and it might make more noise, or make noise across a broader speed range, than the one I have.
Pat
All I have for comparison is my 15. It is not noise free by any means but it's at least 80% quieter than the 24. I know its an open car but in high at around 30 or so the most prevalent noise is the engine clicking away and not a loud grinding noise. My concern is that it's not right and it would do more harm to just let it go. The engine and transmission were rebuilt but I am sure the axle was not. I am thinking it may be worth my time to disconnect the axle and run the car to confirm.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:06 pm

A "loud grinding noise" sounds ominous.

My noise is more of a mild to moderate whine, and it only occurs within a narrow speed range, and it has not changed as miles accumulate.

The only way to be certain of what you have is to take a look inside.

Thick, black lubricant may indicate trouble, or not. If it was thin and black, I'd suspect motor oil was getting into the axle and diluting the lubricant. That's not entirely out of the question, since the thickening may be relating to motor oil washing old gunk free, thus thickening the lube, or water may be present.


Have you tried replacing the gear oil with something like a straight 140 wt gear oil?


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:17 pm

I ran the car for a few miles and sucked out the old lube and replaced it with 80w140. It did not make any difference but would a flush maybe help? If so what would you use to flush the axle with.....kerosene? If I do end up rebuilding it I am going to add a drain plug.

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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:37 am

So the rear axle is making a grinding sound and you're sure it hasn't been rebuilt? I wouldn't waste time on draining and flushing. I'd get that sucker out of there, split it open, and fix what needs fixing. The MTFCA Axle book tells you in step-by-step detail what to do.

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html
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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Wed Apr 05, 2023 6:13 am

Steve Jelf wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:37 am
So the rear axle is making a grinding sound and you're sure it hasn't been rebuilt? I wouldn't waste time on draining and flushing. I'd get that sucker out of there, split it open, and fix what needs fixing. The MTFCA Axle book tells you in step-by-step detail what to do.

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html
Steve
Thanks for posting about the rear axle. I am going to add RM brakes so would new axle shafts and safety hubs along with the new pinion bearing kit be advised? Basically I am looking for a parts shopping list. Not into band aids and try to to do things right the first time so I appreciate your help.

Ron

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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TWrenn » Wed Apr 05, 2023 9:12 am

Model T Ron wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:17 pm
TWrenn wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:59 pm
Model T Ron wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:13 pm
I took the 24 Coupe for a test drive and the clutch feels exactly like my 15 Touring so at least that's fixed but the noise did not go away. I think Scott is right about it being axle noise amplified through the transmission. Got the car up to 30 on a flat road and let off the gas and the noise was not so loud but still apparent. Then I put her in neutral and the sound was exactly the same so it looks like a axle rebuild is in my future.
Might only be gear lash noise? Not an expert in rear end rebuilding, but I do remember after having my '20 rear end rebuilt there was some, and eventually it got a bit quieter as it wore in. My '13 I think has a similar noise from the rear end, can't describe it of course, but doesn't seem to be bothersome. Over 10K miles on it. I'd not jump into it right away. As I recall Ron I yanked on the wheels for Joe when he got it and there was no "outplay" on them at all, so presumably they already have at least the bronze thrust washer anyway. Of course only one way to know for sure.
Tim
I need to do some more investigating. The axle condition looks like it has not been apart for some time and the surface looks like it could use a media blast down to bare metal and refinishing. The oil I took out of it was very black and thick so it may just be time for a little TLC. I have never rebuilt a Model T Axle but I did do one on my Model A and it was not that bad. Flipping through the Service manual it looks like detailed instructions are available.

What parts did you replace on your 20 T when rebuilding the axle?

Thanks
Ron
Ron, as I recall, about the only thing that wasn't replaced was the ring gear, pinion gears and spider, as well as the diff housing of course. New axle shafts but we re-pressed the gears on those. Main reason for my rebuild was the need for the bronze thrust washers. This one had the babbit, one was deteriorating, one was so-so. The drive shaft inner sleeve was replaced. After it was put back in the car, it had a "different noise" than before, Jack said it was gonna have a slight gear lash noise and he was right. Didn't seem to be a problem. The problem with any T is, they all have their idiosyncracies (sp) so it's hard to tell. It's possible someone used "wrong oil" if there can be such a thing, but I have to admit I stick to the oil that the vendors sell for the T rear end. Supposedly it was designed for this application particularly in the case of bronze washers.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Apr 05, 2023 9:48 am

I don't think a flush would help. Changing the oil would have been sufficient. Flushing can cause issues. The vendor axle oil is not black, though it's darker than most modern gear oil. Have you checked the oil you took out of the axle for metal particles? If you still have it, putting a small magnet in it and stirring it may reveal metal debris. A very small amount is not unusual, but there should not be much. Bronze will not be attracted to a magnet, but it's usually visible if you agitate the oil, especially in bright sunlight. Some is normal, but it should not be much.

It may be that replacing the thrust washers changed the way the gears mesh, and with worn-in gears, that could be expected to change the sound they make. I'm pretty sure that brand new Model Ts had some rear axle gear noise at certain speeds. A closed car will make any such noise more obvious.

It's impossible to be sure of the axle's condition without tearing it down and examining every part.

Be aware that the noise may not be coming from the axle at all. It can be difficult to determine exactly where a mechanical noise is originating, and that's especially true in a Model T, which has virtually nothing in the way of sound deadening or vibration damping or isolating.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:04 am

I don't think differential gears would make noise going straight down the road with rear tires of matched diameter. If the noise is louder when rounding a curve or turning sharply, it might point to an issue with the differential gears. Mis-matched tires of significantly different diameters, might cause differential gear noise. Some tires can set up a growling, rumbling, or howling noise, usually noticeable on smooth pavement.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by Model T Ron » Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:24 pm

Steve Jelf wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:37 am
So the rear axle is making a grinding sound and you're sure it hasn't been rebuilt? I wouldn't waste time on draining and flushing. I'd get that sucker out of there, split it open, and fix what needs fixing. The MTFCA Axle book tells you in step-by-step detail what to do.

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html
I guess I am going to get the book and rebuild the axle. I looked at Texas T Parts and they offer longer axles, modern bearings, and a 3:1 ring and pinion.......the car has a very strong engine so I think I might as well do it up right. The 3;1 is the same as driving in Warford High and my 15 likes that gearing at 30 to 35. More money than I was expecting to pay but if it needs it it needs it.


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Re: Waking up a Sleepy T

Post by speedytinc » Thu Apr 06, 2023 8:33 am

If you dont have a warford, rux or equivalent under drive, I wouldnt advise a 3-1 set. You wont be happy. 30-35 mph with 3-1's will be running the motor out of its power curve. You will be using a lot of low pedal. That gets old fast & is rough on the left knee. Standard gears with a good motor will easily & happily cruise 45 all day & will hit 55 easy. Need more speed than that?

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