knocking engine

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ElGranadaT
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knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:39 pm

Hello all,

I finally got my 22 touring barn find running today. It starts ok its firing on all cylinder well but it has a clear knock. The knock is in time with one of the pistons and it gets progressively louder as it heats up. After a few minutes it gets VERY loud and the engine slows to a stop.

this is not good -

My guess is its a bearing or somehow strangely a piston - and my next step will be to pull the head and the pan tomorrow -
Hope for the best but prepare for the worst and I'm expecting this is going to end up being a full rebuild...

Given the engine is worn to this point my next worry (expectation) is that the transmission is in just as bad, if not worse condition, and then I need to think about the differential. I'm guessing this is part of the journey when getting a barn find car with no history... the lessons being... their was most likely a very good reason why they abandoned the car and left it to rot in the barn in the first place... oh well... caveat emptor... and I'm still committed to finishing this car ---

So, here is my question - What's the most economical way to approach this? it doesn't seem possible to do just a bottom end with babbitt bearings...
Does any shop sell full short blocks - with overhauled trans / cam / valves / rings / pistons / bottom end? should I take my chances on a motor in the classified?

Any and all advice is welcome-

Thanks!

Marty


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Re: knocking engine

Post by John kuehn » Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:57 pm

Hello!
Since you’re in California you could contact one of the MTFCA chapters in your area. Go to the Home page then about and you can find the California chapters close to you. They can give you advice about a shop or people who rebuild T engines. Good luck and of course you can get advice about repairing your car here on the forum.
One of the best things you can do is to get the Ford Service Manual. Read and study it to get better aquatinted with a T. It can really help.
Remember the T manual and other MTFCA publications about the different aspects of your car can tell you what NOT to do when repairing it besides explaining what needs to be done.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:14 pm

That's a little odd. If it gets louder as the engine runs, then the engine "slows to a stop", it might be a piston seizing. It's possible the engine is not oiling properly due to a restricted oil pipe or some other issue, such as rust in the bore from any of several causes. It could be related to failure of a two-piece valve.

It may be a serious issue requiring removal and rebuild of the engine, or it may not be. I would find out exactly what is going on before taking any drastic action.

If you can obtain the use of a borescope, I suggest removing the spark plugs (keep them in order) and inspecting the condition of the cylinder walls.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:15 pm

While the Service Manual is a "must have", it will not specifically tell you to stop running the car if it knocks...that's an independent decision one must make on their own. Finding help from a local club will pay more dividends right now than owning the manual, though the manual should prove useful in the future and over the long haul.

Since it ran until it over heated and seized up, you are likely going to become very intimately acquainted with it, and have lots of questions, so accept any help that's offered from your soon-to-be-good-friends from the local club. Good luck.
Scott Conger

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ElGranadaT
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Re: knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:28 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:14 pm
That's a little odd. If it gets louder as the engine runs, then the engine "slows to a stop", it might be a piston seizing. It's possible the engine is not oiling properly due to a restricted oil pipe or some other issue, such as rust in the bore from any of several causes. It could be related to failure of a two-piece valve.

It may be a serious issue requiring removal and rebuild of the engine, or it may not be. I would find out exactly what is going on before taking any drastic action.

If you can obtain the use of a borescope, I suggest removing the spark plugs (keep them in order) and inspecting the condition of the cylinder walls.
good advice- I did use a borescope when I first got it and all looked actually very good- I thought it had oil splash with no oil pump??? is it possible to do just a bottom end while its in the car?

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Re: knocking engine

Post by Bill Robinson » Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:36 pm

Martin- before we go any further, how about posting what you intend to do with the car once it's running good. For example- do you plan on showing the car, making it a fun driver- possibly touring with it, selling it, etc. That might make a difference.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:01 pm

It has a splash system for oiling, which includes an oil pipe from the flywheel area up to the timing cover area, which assures that oil will reach the rod troughs in the pan along with the timing gears. The main source of oil for the cylinders is oil picked up from the troughs by the rods and thrown up into the cylinders. It's possible for the oil pipe to become dislodged or clogged with lint from the transmission bands. Should that happen, insufficient oiling could result in a piston siezing or other damage. Old bands can disintegrate and dump a lot of lint into the oil supply, or lint and debris can accumulate over time. Another possibility is that you have a tight band that is causing a drum to heat up and bind the transmission. A knock is probably an engine problem, but it could result from a cracked transmission drum. I'd re-inspect the bores for any sign of damage, and take the inspection cover off the transmission and take a good look inside. A burned out rod bearing will typically knock as soon as the engine is started, and probably would not cause the engine to stop.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:07 pm

It's possible to replace the rods and pistons with the engine in the car, and the main bearings can be adjusted. This assumes the main bearings are in fair condition, and that the crank pins are not damaged or severely worn. The cylinder bores need to be in fair condition to get good results. It's important to find out what's wrong before taking action. The engine may be worn out, or it may not be. The same is true for the transmission.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by Steve King » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:41 pm

20230327_202743.jpg
Be ready! This 25 coupe engine was running in the car. It got sick with broken magnets. So it was supposed to just be magneto repairs. I bought it knowing this. Well it also had 2 water jacket freeze cracks I repaired. Top of number 4 original cast piston was cracked. So now it is bored 40 over, with new aluminum pistons and rings. Magnets recharged thanks to Brendan Doughty at his Plank Hill Garage. New field coil. I also decided to replace all the valves with. 015" over since 4 were loose in the guide holes. Got these on order with a reamer and an Old Faithful oiler from Chaffins Garage.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:50 pm

When the car runs and finally stops, is it overheating? You would know this if when you turn off the engine it gurgles and emits steam. If it is overheating, your piston could be expanding to the point it seizes. Could be all you need is some work on the cooling system. The knock could be anything between a loose piston to wrist pin or connecting rod. It could even be a main bearing knocking or camshaft. So, see if you can find someone in your local area who is familiar with Model T's who can help you assess the cause of your knock and stalling. Usually when an engine overheats and stalls, it will not turn over until it cools off then it will turn over and start after it cools. Overheating to the point of seizing many times will eventually lead to need for complete rebuild.
Sometimes when the engine has been overheated the pistons will "collapse". and make them loose, then when it overheats they will expand and cause it to stall. This can also cause excessive oil burning and if it runs too low on oil, will also cause damage. So I suspect the engine might need complete rebuild.
If you are handy with tools, you can get the T club booklets on Engine, Transmission, and Electrical system. It gives very good advice on how to check things and do it yourself. You might only need a good machine shop to do the boring and valve work. Then you can assemble things yourself. There are also people in the club who pour and grind the babbit bearings to fit your crankshaft.
Norm

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Re: knocking engine

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:27 am

...and then I need to think about the differential.

Right now the engine is the center of attention, but yes, especially with a car that seems not to have been well maintained, you will need to get to this before you start driving the car.
https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html


By the way, something else you should do with a "new" Model T is to be sure of what it is. I say this because it's extremely common for these cars to be misidentified. New to the T game, I bought what I was told was a 1922 touring, and I soon found out that it was actually a 1923, and my 1922 TT project is actually a 1924. For some things a mistake of a year or two doesn't matter, but there are times when it does. If you post some good photos we can confirm what your Ford is or isn't. Pretend you're selling it, and take photos accordingly.
https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG100.html
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Re: knocking engine

Post by BobP » Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:59 am

Hi, I did not read all of the responses. Check the crank pulley, could be loose and knocking.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by Adam » Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:38 am

Martin, Does your engine have aluminum pistons? What you are describing fits the diagnosis of a piston pin seizing in an aluminum piston. Usually the pin stays pretty tight when the engine cools. To the point that it’s real hard to turn. It’s unusual that the engine would be totally free again when fully cooled. The pin usually galls and has to be pressed out of the piston. If your issue is a sticky wrist pin, sometimes all you have to do is pull your pistons & take them to an automotive machine shop to have the pin bores properly fit (honed). This is actually a pretty common issue because most hobbyists rebuilding their T engines don’t realize the aluminum pistons pin bores usually always require a little additional line honing to bring the bores into line and enlarge them a bit.


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ElGranadaT
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Re: knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:32 am

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:01 pm
It has a splash system for oiling, which includes an oil pipe from the flywheel area up to the timing cover area, which assures that oil will reach the rod troughs in the pan along with the timing gears. The main source of oil for the cylinders is oil picked up from the troughs by the rods and thrown up into the cylinders. It's possible for the oil pipe to become dislodged or clogged with lint from the transmission bands. Should that happen, insufficient oiling could result in a piston siezing or other damage. Old bands can disintegrate and dump a lot of lint into the oil supply, or lint and debris can accumulate over time. Another possibility is that you have a tight band that is causing a drum to heat up and bind the transmission. A knock is probably an engine problem, but it could result from a cracked transmission drum. I'd re-inspect the bores for any sign of damage, and take the inspection cover off the transmission and take a good look inside. A burned out rod bearing will typically knock as soon as the engine is started, and probably would not cause the engine to stop.
thanks for the excellent explanation


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Re: knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:43 am

thank you all very much for the help. These suggestions are all encouraging and I'm learning a lot (part of the fun of owning a T) Today or tomorrow I'll pull the head and pan and do a full inspection and update this post...

In the meantime: I see replacement rods and bearing kits? any opinions about these?


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Re: knocking engine

Post by speedytinc » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:53 am

Adam wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:38 am
Martin, Does your engine have aluminum pistons? What you are describing fits the diagnosis of a piston pin seizing in an aluminum piston. Usually the pin stays pretty tight when the engine cools. To the point that it’s real hard to turn. It’s unusual that the engine would be totally free again when fully cooled. The pin usually galls and has to be pressed out of the piston. If your issue is a sticky wrist pin, sometimes all you have to do is pull your pistons & take them to an automotive machine shop to have the pin bores properly fit (honed). This is actually a pretty common issue because most hobbyists rebuilding their T engines don’t realize the aluminum pistons pin bores usually always require a little additional line honing to bring the bores into line and enlarge them a bit.
This was my first thought also, but "barn find" doesnt lead me to aluminum pistons. I does lead me to a lack of oil.
Plugged internal oil line. @ the least, I would pull the inspection cover to confirm pistons & dry evidence. Check damage to the rods.(loose)


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Re: knocking engine

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:08 pm

You can buy rebabbited rods, if needed, or have yours rebuilt. The crankpins can be checked. New pistons, pins, and rings are available. Main bearings can't be replaced with the engine in the car. I'd take another look in the cylinders before pulling the head, and look inside the transmission and take the pan cover off and look at the rods and lower bores. You can also see some of the cam and lifters with the pan access plate off. If there are a lot of metal fragments in the pan, you may have serious issues, or it may be a single rod bearing that has failed. A piston could sieze from lack of oil, or having been fitted too tightly, or a problem related to stuck or broken or poorly-fitted rings, or a tight wrist pin fit.

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Re: knocking engine

Post by speedytinc » Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:50 pm

Running until it seizes adds extra strain to an already minimally durable crank.
If you tear the motor down, have the crank magnafluxed.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:26 pm

Greetings all -
.. 

Here is today's update: 

Today I pulled the head, oil pan, valve cover and trans inspection plate. To my total amazement it all looks great  as if it had been recently overhauled. The cylinders are Aluminum and the cylinder walls are smooth with no marks whatsoever- 

There was no metal at all in the oil or the pan and the inside of the bottom crankcase looks pristine and clean - 

The side cam guides, etc are all smooth with no real signs of wear. ( some heavy black carbon on valves.=.. mixture? )  

Given it started and ran well (Except for the knocking) and there was no blue smoke at all - I'm going to say the top side and valves appear to all be good- - BUT - I still need to somehow inspect the piston wrist pins - which was suggested as a possibility --- Its not clear how that might cause the knocking that leads to a slow down - without scoring the side walls - but this is uncharted territory and who knows- I'm just not that eager to pull the pistons until I've gone down a few other paths --- 

 For the bottom end bearings;

No apparent slop in any of the bearings -

For now - I only pulled the number 2 rod bearing - I noted the number 2 rod bearing cap had only partial threads on one bolt and full threads on the other- Reaching over the top - the bolt holding the splash part was twisted and not set properly. ... it was torqued down tightly though- 
When I pulled the rod cap   - which was babbitted... the crank and babbitt were perfectly smooth with no burns, burrs, or scoring. everything looks almost new - 

The front timing gears also look good - no chipped / worn teeth - and as far as I could see at least- the camshaft looked ok 
(Hmmm... cam shaft bearings???) 

On the transmission top cover removal - nothing looked loose or out of place - as far as I could tell - 

so... what's next? flywheel, magneto, transmission??  I'm assuming I need to pull the hogshead to get to that? 
I do have a Delco distributor - and I don't know if the flywheel still has the magnets- I'm thinking it might just to keep things in balance when it was overhauled -

other side notes: on the suggestion of a frozen clutch - it was apparently free turning free throughout the test loop - and I'm thinking the clutch wouldn't knock (???) 

and last side note: 
In my haste to see the rod bearing I didn't notice front vs. back - (Damn me!)  There were 3 shims on both sides - and the bearing cap does have a no. 2 stamped on one side. Any other ways of knowing front to back?  

Thanks again 

Marty 


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Re: knocking engine

Post by speedytinc » Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:52 pm

If there is NO scoring or aluminum deposited, we rule out seizing pistons. Use a mirror & check em all well. Only takes one piston.
If the wrist pins are too tight, you should see heat discoloration on the wrist pin bosses. Look @ all 8.
When you removed the rod cap, did you move the crank out of the way & check for a free swinging rod?
The knocking increasing & stopping the motor still points to a piston issue to me.
I would not be in a hurry to disassemble without finding the expected cause thru the inspection cover.

As a remote transmission rule out, if/when the motor checks out, lift one wheel, start & run in gear.

I look forward to the answer of what you find is/was the problem. I expected you to find it obvious from below.

The rod & cap should have both been marked on the mating sides.

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Re: knocking engine

Post by Craig Leach » Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:13 pm

Hi Martin,
This is were a picture is worth a 1000 words, take pics of everything before you take it apart. Most of the time rods are not symmetrical
so if the cap is on backwards it will be tighter than the right way. Dont force it. Was there plenty of oil in the dips when you dropped the
inspection cover? I take it that it turns over OK when cooled off? Would it turn over when it stopped running? I'm wondering what the
Generator gear looked like one of the worst knocks I ever heard was a loose generator gear. Wish you luck & hope you don't get discuraged.
Craig.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:21 pm

Re: Engine slowing and stopping:

Could it possibley be running out of gas due to fuel system issues? A restricted fuel supply might allow the engine to run a while, then stop. After sitting a while, it might again start and run for a short time, then run out of gas.

Perhaps the knock is entirely unrelated to the engine stopping issue.

Check main cap bolt tightness and be sure none of them are loose.

Re: Rod bolt that was not correctly installed... could it possibley be lightly hitting the cam?


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ElGranadaT
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Re: knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:25 pm

Craig Leach wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:13 pm
Hi Martin,
This is were a picture is worth a 1000 words, take pics of everything before you take it apart. Most of the time rods are not symmetrical
so if the cap is on backwards it will be tighter than the right way. Dont force it. Was there plenty of oil in the dips when you dropped the
inspection cover? I take it that it turns over OK when cooled off? Would it turn over when it stopped running? I'm wondering what the
Generator gear looked like one of the worst knocks I ever heard was a loose generator gear. Wish you luck & hope you don't get discuraged.
Craig.
Hi Craig - Thank you for replying - I did figure out the rod cap orientation- the stamped numbers go to the side with the cam - and the rod cap is back on and torqued down. turns ok -

...
I do have a new generator but the gear looks good - for that matter - all the gears look good and clean.
...
I did have it filled with oil - to the top petcock began to drip -


will post pictures soon


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ElGranadaT
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Re: knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:32 pm

some images
Attachments
pistons.jpg
crank .jpg
bearing cap.jpg


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Re: knocking engine

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:37 pm

Oh my... :?

Unfortunately, I would suspect more things wrong than right...you have your work cut out for you and you might as well be prepared to do the full monte rather than hunt and peck looking for "the problem" (there are lots of them).

Good luck.
Scott Conger

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Re: knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:57 pm

speedytinc wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:52 pm
If there is NO scoring or aluminum deposited, we rule out seizing pistons. Use a mirror & check em all well. Only takes one piston.
If the wrist pins are too tight, you should see heat discoloration on the wrist pin bosses. Look @ all 8.
When you removed the rod cap, did you move the crank out of the way & check for a free swinging rod?
The knocking increasing & stopping the motor still points to a piston issue to me.
I would not be in a hurry to disassemble without finding the expected cause thru the inspection cover.

As a remote transmission rule out, if/when the motor checks out, lift one wheel, start & run in gear.

I look forward to the answer of what you find is/was the problem. I expected you to find it obvious from below.

The rod & cap should have both been marked on the mating sides.


...

I agree with your approach -

Today's Trivia that I just learned : The wrist pin is also known as a Gudgeon Pin ...

I see that the piston wrist pin is clamped by the rod end and it oscillates inside the pressed in bushings in the pistons - In all the cars I've worked on the pin is fixed and the bearings / bushings are in the connecting rod end -

I can see how it could be that as the pin heats up it and begins to bind in the bushing - if the bushings were not pressed in concentrically ???

I also like the idea of rotating the crank when the pistons are out to check for friction -


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Re: knocking engine

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:03 pm

In your second picture, one of the bolts is broken off or sawed off right where the cotter pin goes through. I wonder whether that bolt was hitting something and was sawed or broken off? Another thing to check since you have the head off is whether the piston tops might be hitting the head or the gasket. If the cylinder was bored out over about 60 thousandths, it could hit the head. Some heads are different from others.
Norm


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Re: knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:15 pm

Bill Robinson wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:36 pm
Martin- before we go any further, how about posting what you intend to do with the car once it's running good. For example- do you plan on showing the car, making it a fun driver- possibly touring with it, selling it, etc. That might make a difference.
hi - sorry for late reply - this is to be a fun car to take the kids and grandkid out - not a show or parade car - still - safety and reliability are the top priorities with cosmetics the least of my worries -


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Re: knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:18 pm

Norman Kling wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:03 pm
In your second picture, one of the bolts is broken off or sawed off right where the cotter pin goes through. I wonder whether that bolt was hitting something and was sawed or broken off? Another thing to check since you have the head off is whether the piston tops might be hitting the head or the gasket. If the cylinder was bored out over about 60 thousandths, it could hit the head. Some heads are different from others.
Norm
Hi Norm - That is an interesting thought - The piston does seem exceptionally proud of the top of the block surface with the head off- but no signs of any sort of damage to either the pistons or the dead -

also

no cotter pins at all on any of the nuts -


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Re: knocking engine

Post by speedytinc » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:25 pm

ElGranadaT wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:57 pm
speedytinc wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:52 pm
If there is NO scoring or aluminum deposited, we rule out seizing pistons. Use a mirror & check em all well. Only takes one piston.
If the wrist pins are too tight, you should see heat discoloration on the wrist pin bosses. Look @ all 8.
When you removed the rod cap, did you move the crank out of the way & check for a free swinging rod?
The knocking increasing & stopping the motor still points to a piston issue to me.
I would not be in a hurry to disassemble without finding the expected cause thru the inspection cover.

As a remote transmission rule out, if/when the motor checks out, lift one wheel, start & run in gear.

I look forward to the answer of what you find is/was the problem. I expected you to find it obvious from below.

The rod & cap should have both been marked on the mating sides.


...

I agree with your approach -

Today's Trivia that I just learned : The wrist pin is also known as a Gudgeon Pin ...

I see that the piston wrist pin is clamped by the rod end and it oscillates inside the pressed in bushings in the pistons - In all the cars I've worked on the pin is fixed and the bearings / bushings are in the connecting rod end -

I can see how it could be that as the pin heats up it and begins to bind in the bushing - if the bushings were not pressed in concentrically ???

I also like the idea of rotating the crank when the pistons are out to check for friction -
These pistons dont have bushings. The Gudgeon pin moves in the aluminum casting.

I have to agree with Scott. Not seeing good things. I wouldnt trust anything that was done, transmission included.
This would make me do a complete tear down & rebuild To fix all the seen & to be seen problems. Then you can trust & completely enjoy your T.
May not be a costly parts issue, but more of an undoing of what was done wrong.

Modern chevy rod nuts dont need pinning, they self lock.
Model T pistons, original& replacement do protrude above the deck.

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Re: knocking engine

Post by Craig Leach » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:48 pm

Hi Martin,
If you refere to the wrist pin as a Gudgeon pin you will need to turn it with a spanner to get it home.
Craig. :D


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Re: knocking engine

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:54 pm

Yes, there's lots to think about here. For starters, when you eventually disassemble it all, take those pieces of sheet metal on the rod cap bolts, that are apparently intended to scoop oil, and throw them in the trash.

Also, if you remove the clamp bolts that hold the wrist pins in place, do NOT do so by simply putting a socket on them and twisting. You'll bend the connecting rod if you do that. With the piston and rod removed as an assembly, slide a steel bar through the hollow wrist pin. When you loosen the clamp bolt, use the steel bar to hold and support the wrist pin/connecting rod. This puts no undue force on the con rod.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:58 pm

Abnormal side wear on the rod cap and rod babbit shown suggests the rod is already twisted.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:43 pm

Pat has a good eye! This might have happened while tightening the bolt at the wrist pin. Best way to keep it from twisting is to put a rod inside the wrist pin and clamp the rod in a vise. Then tighten the bolt and place the cotter pin. If you clamp the rod in a vise it is easy to twist it while tightening. You will need to find someone with a jig for straightening the rods. The pin must be in exact alignment with the crankshaft bearing.
Norm

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Re: knocking engine

Post by JTT3 » Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:19 pm

Looking at the rod cap & the rod still seated on the crank I see no sweeps or the X grove completed nor a radius cut completely or correctly in the cap/rod. Is the #2 cylinder showing some scoring? The other thing that I’m seeing is there’s not much or any clearance between the rod and crank shoulder preventing any side to side float. Bad juju imho.

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Re: knocking engine

Post by Bill Robinson » Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:07 am

Thanks for the reply Martin. “Kids and grandkid”- brings back many memories. With this in mind make it safe and dependable- don’t cut corners- do it right for safety sake. Drive some backroads for a picnic lunch.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:15 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:54 pm
Yes, there's lots to think about here. For starters, when you eventually disassemble it all, take those pieces of sheet metal on the rod cap bolts, that are apparently intended to scoop oil, and throw them in the trash.

Also, if you remove the clamp bolts that hold the wrist pins in place, do NOT do so by simply putting a socket on them and twisting. You'll bend the connecting rod if you do that. With the piston and rod removed as an assembly, slide a steel bar through the hollow wrist pin. When you loosen the clamp bolt, use the steel bar to hold and support the wrist pin/connecting rod. This puts no undue force on the con rod.
great advice- thanks


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Re: knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:30 pm

Thank you all again for the great advice.

I think I may have found the culprit - The attached image is of No. 1 piston - Its scored and the bottom of the cylinder is also scored -
the wrist pin slides very easily - with lots of play- No. 2,3,and 4 pistons are not that bad... and those pistons and cylinders have no scoring or discoloration.

Thanks to my local club, I was given a link to a local machinist who has the original Ford tooling and can handle a rework - I'll bring him the
engine and hope for the best.

Although I had planned on naming this car after my wife, I'm beginning to think I now need to change it to $ 'cha-ching' $

thanks all again - and keep em' flyin'

Marty
Attachments
number 1 piston - rev3.jpg


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Re: knocking engine

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:39 pm

Marty

you have a great attitude and outlook

they will both serve you well in the hobby as I'm sure they've served you well in life

best of luck
Scott Conger

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Re: knocking engine

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:50 pm

Could be much worse. Pistons are cheap, as things go these days. The blue goop and improper rod bearing fit and compromised rod cap bolt indicate a need for further investigation.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by speedytinc » Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:27 pm

Check that internal oil line. (it looks like a piece of copper tubing in a picture). I wonder whats going on with that.
# 1 rod & piston are the first to fail under a lack of oil.
Part of the why or one bore too tight?


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Re: knocking engine

Post by ElGranadaT » Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:58 pm

speedytinc wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:27 pm
Check that internal oil line. (it looks like a piece of copper tubing in a picture). I wonder whats going on with that.
# 1 rod & piston are the first to fail under a lack of oil.
Part of the why or one bore too tight?
you nailed it - Took it to Dave Rich in Forestville yesterday (excellent T machinist!) - The scupper from the hogs head was clogged with a piece of material from the brakes- and no. 1,3 and 4 wrist pins were loose- No. 2 wrist pin was very tight- The theory has it that Aluminum piston expands the wrist pin hole and the wrist pins begin to knock - I've heard a few people now comment that they had wrist pin failure. Seems the original cast iron pistons were better than the Aluminum -

I live in the hills and a friend recommended a Texas T auxiliary oiler to the front of the engine -

I learn something new every day- too bad I'm starting to forget TWO things every day also...


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Re: knocking engine

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:24 pm

Martin

your plugged oil line is one reason I always pull the right-front bolt from the lower inspection plate and start the engine on any T that is new to me or brought for service...with a catch pan below, and the engine running, if oil does not emanate forth with a healthy flow, the engine is turned off and hog's head inspection performed before the engine is ever started again.

It's a bit of wisdom you will rarely if ever, hear from anyone else, but your plight is a perfect example of why I believe that it is a good idea. Hopefully you will be able to refresh your engine with minimal effort, though from your pictures, there should be a ton of preventative inspection performed...sounds like you're on the right track.
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Re: knocking engine

Post by BUSHMIKE » Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:46 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:24 pm
Martin

your plugged oil line is one reason I always pull the right-front bolt from the lower inspection plate and start the engine on any T that is new to me or brought for service...with a catch pan below, and the engine running, if oil does not emanate forth with a healthy flow, the engine is turned off and hog's head inspection performed before the engine is ever started again.
Scott,
that is a fantastic tip! Ill try it tomorrow as I noticed the oil line kinked in several places from the rod cotters hitting it.


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Re: knocking engine

Post by speedytinc » Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:54 pm

Those kinks each form natural dams for the band fuzz & other muck to hang up on.
You can have a blocked line not obvious looking @ the funnel.

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