Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

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Model T Ron
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Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Model T Ron » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:38 pm

Just wanted to know everyone's thoughts on the Hydraulic stabilizer for front axle. I have one on my 15 Touring (came with it) and the car never seems to get caught in the ruts and I never had an issue with the front wheels tracking. I drove my 24 Coupe with a very tight front end for the first time last weekend and she tracked with the road. The steering is tight so I have a feeling it's because the 24 has no Hydraulic stabilizer.


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:02 pm

I don't see any need for a stabilizer on a T with the chassis in good condition and all alignment correct. If you do a LOT of backing-up, a hydraulic stabilizer/damper might make the car a little easier to steer in reverse. If you drive a lot on very rough roads, a stabilizer might reduce wear on the steering parts. Any stabilizer is going to add some friction to the steering system, and that can make the car tend to wander a little going down a straight, smooth road. A stock T with the chassis in good condition will track very nicely.

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A Whiteman
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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by A Whiteman » Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:04 am

a very tight front end
might be an issue if it is 'very' tight?

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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Craig Leach » Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:30 am

Hi Ron,
I would be looking into everything in the chassis. I have a period correct steering stableizer for sale in the classiffides but do not use one on
either of my T's. If everything is wright a T will run down the road just fine ( even @ 50 + mph ) Check to make sure nothing is loose front &
rear, then check gather ( toe in ) caster & camber. Wheels & tires. I would love to sell you the stablizer that I have but do not recomend it
as a solution to needed repairs that will make your T safer.
Craig.


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:17 am

Ron

there is a difference between "tight" and "no play". "Tight" will lead to a "T" which is very unruly on the road...often even more so than one that is worn out. I doubt very much that the hydraulic damper on your '15 is making it nice to drive...it is very likely nice to drive without it, too.

Research on the Forum should show one or more broken tie rods caused by dampers.

Most "improvements" on a "T" are generally benign. I don't consider a damper to be a benign device and the most generous thing I could say about them is this: at best, if they actually improve anything, then they are masking a potentially serious deficiency in your suspension.
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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:51 am

I am not familiar with the hydraulic stabilizer. Can you post a picture of it?
Norm


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:02 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:17 am
Ron


Research on the Forum should show one or more broken tie rods caused by dampers.

A friend of mine had a tie rod snap in half right in the middle of a busy intersection. The break was right next to the collar where the stabilizer attached.

Another had the tie rod collar slip on the tie rod while turning a corner. It stuck in its new position and would not allow the steering to go back to center. SCARY!


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:32 pm

If the steering is "tight" in the sense of having excess friction in the steering system, it will drive you crazy. "Tight" in the sense of having little or no free play is good.

The car should not have any tendency to keep going in the direction it's pointed, unless it's pointed straight ahead on a level road.

Make sure that the entire steering system, including the gears under the steering wheel, is well-lubricated and free of any tendency to bind. Be sure that nothing is causing the steering shaft to bind, such as misalignment or some problem with body mounts, frame, or the lower steering bracket. Be sure the spring clamps are tight and lubricate the front and rear springs. Be sure wheel alignment is corect and that tire pressures are in the recommended range. Tires with good tread steer better than worn tires.

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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:14 pm

Norman Kling wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:51 am
I am not familiar with the hydraulic stabilizer. Can you post a picture of it?
Norm
Tie rod breakage maybe related to ones being tube vs solid steel. Would help to collect that info.
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stabalizer.png
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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by speedytinc » Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:52 pm

IMHO. its a patch for other problems/wear issues.
They are absolutely unnecessary.
If you want more stability @ high speeds (above 50-55) add some additional rake to the front axle.


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Chris Barker » Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:23 am

The tie rod is carefully designed to carry just end loads - tension and compression. And it's a tube.
I would not want that device adding bending loads, with an added risk of fretting or compression at its attachment.

Put it away with any water pumps you may own.

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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Craig Leach » Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:27 am

Steering stablizers & anti rattle springs have been around for almost as long as Model T's. The roads of the time maybe more responsable
than worn out parts. The steering stableizer pictured is the style that VW used on thier front ends from 1960 - 1977. The engineers @ VW
seemed to think they were needed. Stableizers are used on many cars & trucks even today to impove drivability. The danger issue seems
to stem from the way they are installed. I have found them miss installed or possibly moved from the original installation so that it limited
travel in one direction. They may have been installed to aid in backing up a T? Many designs were available. Some times we loose sight of
that biulding a automobile to be as cheap as possible leaves room for many shortfalls. And gave birth to the vast aftermarket & accessory
industry we enjoy today. As much as we would love to think so our beloved Model T's are not perfect. :o
anti rattle.jpg
anti rattle.jpg (9.04 KiB) Viewed 1394 times
This is an example of a early steering stablizer/dampener that is very simple using friction to control steering, it also increases friction
as the steering increases.
Craig.

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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by speedytinc » Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:40 am

I always wondered why folks added one of those stabilizer shocks. An in spec steering system doesnt need one, even @ speeds over 60.
I had no idea it could put @ risk all the people in the car until this thread.

An accessory added to aid in the comfort & stability is a good thing if it works.
An accessory that has Even a small chance of killing you should be avoided.


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:54 am

Some modern vehicles have OE steering stabilizers.

Model Ts did not have them, and do not need them.

Aftermarket stabilizers (dampers) are often added to later model pickup trucks, especially 4X4 models which are jacked up and shod with oversize tires.

Adding period-type stabilizer spring gadgets or a hydraulic stabilizer won't do anything to correct worn or bent parts, misalignment, bad tires/wheels, etc., and it won't add to the car's driveability, and may detract from it.

A Model T in good condition steers and handles very well under most all conditions at speeds up to and beyond 50 MPH. If your Model T is difficult to handle under ordinary driving conditions, it has an issue or issues that can and ought to be corrected.

I've owned and driven all sorts of straight axle, leaf-sprung vehicles, and the Model T compares well to any of them. A Model T can benefit from the addition of hydraulic shock absorbers at all four wheels, provided the job is done right and appropriate shocks are selected. High quality adjustable friction shocks would be a more period-appropriate second choice.


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:02 pm

The Model T steering system and the entire chassis look very basic and simple. However, the various "systems" are highly engineered, and part of that engineering is load-sharing among various components. Adding a hydraulic stabilizer or other devices to the front axle/steering assembly can upset and defeat carefully designed-in load-sharing and load vectoring.

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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Craig Leach » Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:36 pm

The fact that we drive 100 year old cars that for the most part we have little or no idea how they have been abused in the last century gives
cause to be very cautious. We should concider ourselves lucky we don't live in Japan & other countries that require very expensive annual
inspections on cars over 10 years old that a Model T would never pass.
We need to be diligent in maintaining and inspecting our T's for our safety & that of others. You only have to look around at the break downs
on a tour to realise that as a hobby we need to pay more attention to details. Or find or pay someone that has the knowlage to do so.
Darn I almost fell off my soap box again.
Craig.


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:35 pm

Craig

it is a soap box worth standing on
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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Model T Ron » Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:12 pm

I had my 15 Touring on my rack so I took a look at the stabilizer. I unbolted in and inspected the thing. It has the force of a screen door return so If someone broke a tie rod it was not because of the force from a stabilizer. The tensile strength of low carbon steel is 131,984 pounds per square inch so I highly doubt the stabilizer is capable of braking a tie rod that is not already rusted out.


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:32 pm

Model T Ron wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:12 pm
I had my 15 Touring on my rack so I took a look at the stabilizer. I unbolted in and inspected the thing. It has the force of a screen door return so If someone broke a tie rod it was not because of the force from a stabilizer. The tensile strength of low carbon steel is 131,984 pounds per square inch so I highly doubt the stabilizer is capable of braking a tie rod that is not already rusted out.
It's the added weight of the stabilizer creating vibration and metal fatigue at the clamping point. The broken tie rod I saw was not rusted. The fracture was square and appeared brittle, just immediately adjacent to the stabilizer clamp. However, do as you wish...


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:36 pm

The way hydraulic dampers (shocks, steering stabilizers, etc) work is by forcing oil through a small orifice. If you move the piston rod slowly, there is little resistance. If you try to move it faster, there is more resistance. If you try to move it very fast, there is a very high resistance. If you hit a bump hard in a Model T with a hydraulic stabilizer on the tie rod, the damping force developed is quite capable of bending or breaking the tie rod, or breaking or dislodging the attachment hardware.


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:36 pm

Ron

I would suggest that perhaps your stabilizer is not displaying the same force as others and I think that to assume yours is equivalent to all others based on a sample of 1 might not be the best choice. In any event, no matter the strength analysis, empirical data shows that a small portion of these things have failed, slipped, bound up, or have broken tie rods. In my opinion, it is a solution in search of a problem (that doesn't exist) and if you feel that in your opinion and analysis the risk is worth the reward, then that's pretty much it.

Enough of us have (some personally) seen hobbyists killed when some sort of critical path failure occurred with an accessory, so we are perhaps a little more leery/skeptical of something that has the potential to kill you.

In all seriousness and concern for you and passengers, I am not in any way trying to demean you or your thought-processes...simply trying in good faith to sufficiently warn you of the potential of a serious event. Beyond that it is none of my business how you or anyone else equips or maintains their car...just that there have been some horrendous accidents in the hobby and many of them were preventable had the information regarding the risk had been known ahead of time.

I am one who has personally seen a damper which had broken a tie rod and had been welded up once. It was on a car which broke down on a cross-country trip and I replaced a rod for the fellow to put him back on his way. I warned him about his repaired tie rod and suggested it's replacement, along with removal of the damper...at the very least, remove that damper and stop the flexing of the tie-rod. He turned me down on both counts. Three days later it broke the tie-rod (again) with exciting results. It is documented in his book written about his adventure. For me, it is not a theoretical issue.

wishing you safety and health in the hobby
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:39 pm

If you have a working Houdaille type shock absorber such as used on the Model A Ford, you will find that you can hold the shock body in a vise and move the arm quite easily by hand. The faster you try to move the arm, the more resistance you will encounter. If you strike the outer end of the arm with a 3-pound hammer, it won't move at all.


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Model T Ron » Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:01 pm

I am not discounting what has been said but the one on my 15 may be warn out. For my sample size of 1 I can make the argument that is does little good or bad to the car


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:19 pm

FWIW - your tensile numbers looked way off and in fact after checking, are at least 2X too high for low carbon steel (your material call out, not FORD's)

I don't know the specific alloy of the tie rod, but it is a hollow tube, not solid, and can be bent/damaged pretty easily if acted upon in any direction other than linear stress or compression. Given the very tiny number that is the actual sq/in area cross section of the tube, it is not hard to see why it is easily damaged by a twisting or bending moment.

This would have been a much shorter thread if you had simply said "I have a stabilizer that I plan to leave on my car", rather than ask what folks think and then tell them all that you disagree. It's your prerogative, but I fail to see the point of the original question since that's the case.

Wisdom gained through experience on a given subject will never prevail over a strong predisposed opinion based on hope or faulty data, so to remain cordial in the face of my and everyone else advice being summarily dismissed, this is pretty much the extent of my input. And again, wish you safe travels and plenty of fun.
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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Model T Ron » Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:55 pm

It's the added weight of the stabilizer creating vibration and metal fatigue at the clamping point. The broken tie rod I saw was not rusted. The fracture was square and appeared brittle, just immediately adjacent to the stabilizer clamp. However, do as you wish...
[/quote]

Thanks Jerry. The stabilizer came on my 15 when I got it and I did not realize how they worked as the pressure when moving it by hand was about the same as a screen door return. From what people are saying on hear with first hand experience with failures like the one you seen I am going to remove it.


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Re: Hydraulic stabilizer on front axle

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:12 pm

Model T Ron wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:55 pm
It's the added weight of the stabilizer creating vibration and metal fatigue at the clamping point. The broken tie rod I saw was not rusted. The fracture was square and appeared brittle, just immediately adjacent to the stabilizer clamp. However, do as you wish...
Thanks Jerry. The stabilizer came on my 15 when I got it and I did not realize how they worked as the pressure when moving it by hand was about the same as a screen door return. From what people are saying on hear with first hand experience with failures like the one you seen I am going to remove it.
[/quote]

Happy to read this Ron. Enjoy your T!

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