MTFCA Forum

Picker her up Sunday, got her running Tuesday, this is the third run. I think I'm getting closer on all the adjustments, plus the engine seems to be smoothing out, she sat for a few years.

The old oil looked about like when I change my diesel, only a little thick. My hearing isn't the best plus I don't really know what a T is supposed to sound like. I don't know if you can hear it on this short clip, but it does make a little pop periodically. Any thoughts, guidance or suggestions are welcome, thanks.

I didn't have the right video up, the first one I took the engine noise out to reduce the size, correct one is uploading now.

Okay, see if this works. https://vimeo.com/813401383

It looks like a nice ride.

The music soundtrack makes it difficult to hear any engine noise.

wrong video, give me a minute!

Hard to tell from a video but something sounds like valve clatter to me….

MichaelPawelek wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:10 pm

Hard to tell from a video but something sounds like valve clatter to me….

I couldn't get the video to work, uploading again, maybe it is my computer if you could see it? Anyway, by valve clatter are you saying tappet noise?

Revving too fast for an idle.

Kerry wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:49 am

Revving too fast for an idle.

It is up a little, it's running smoother each time, I'll run a lower idle and do it again, might be a couple days with the weather, thanks.

Keith Daniels wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:51 am

Kerry wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:49 am

Revving too fast for an idle.

It is up a little, it's running smoother each time, I'll run a lower idle and do it again, might be a couple days with the weather, thanks.

I've always said...nothing more exciting, and sometimes frustrating, waking up a T from a long sleep. You changes the oil, clean the plugs if you haven't yet, clean the timer, check the timing! Have ur coils tested. This will give you a good start at making it run like a T should. You can't compare yours for noises too much, as they all have their own distint characteristic.

U also have to get the carb set up properly...I think too many guys run em too rich. Your plugs will tell you.

Keith..at least to me, many others may have differing opinions, but this plug I think shows I got my carb on my '13 set up pretty good. #1 plug, the one that will carbon up more than the following three. The rest on this car are even cleaner. This plug has around 10,000 miles on it, and is showing some electrode wear.

Tuning by ear!!?? My goodness a comment from a group who have some that feel tuning a coil is better achieved by a $microchip than by ear or a buzz box checker!

Maybe there is some one who has developed a O2 sensor in the exhaust system that plugs into a smart phone to suggest if the ignition timing and carburetor are adjusted to factory specs?

Oh no...some one will take this comment seriously......

Maybe there is some one who has developed a O2 sensor in the exhaust system...

been done, and reported on in the forum already

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:06 pm

Maybe there is some one who has developed a O2 sensor in the exhaust system...

been done, and reported on in the forum already

Care to share the details?

Here is one example -- certain there are others -

page Link to this message By George John Drobnock on Monday, August 27, 2018 - 03:06 pm:

Ever consider installing an O2 sensor?

The O2 sensor measures the oxygen content of the exhaust. The O2 sensor�s sensing ability comes about by producing a small voltage proportionate to the exhaust oxygen content. In other words, if the oxygen content is low (Rich) it produces a high voltage (0.90 Volts - Rich mixture) and if the oxygen content is high (Lean) it produces a low voltage (0.10 Volts - Lean mixture). Although theoretically the O2 sensor should cycle between 0.00 volts and 1.00 volts, in reality it cycles between 0.10 volts and 0.90 volts.

Simple process drill exhaust manifold, weld an O2 sensor adapter, connected to an accurate digital meter and see how the mixture is set for your car.

TWrenn wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:32 am

Keith..at least to me, many others may have differing opinions, but this plug I think shows I got my carb on my '13 set up pretty good. #1 plug, the one that will carbon up more than the following three. The rest on this car are even cleaner. This plug has around 10,000 miles on it, and is showing some electrode wear.

That really looks good. My plugs were dark, looked like it had been running rich before. I know I've had it all over the board trying to figure out how to tweak the fuel mixture, which seems to change a bunch as it warms up. I haven't taken the carb off yet, just took the bowl off before the first start to make sure it was clean and pulled the filter out of the sediment bowl on the valve, both clean as a whistle. Pulled the bowl off again after the first start, still clean.

I haven't put the coils on a meter yet, they are all KW coils that look brand new, so clean you can read the manufacture dates on the boxes. They look like they were all rebuilt at the same time, and recently.

The oil was sooty like I get out of my diesel, I'm guessing that's typical on a T? What I didn't like was the oil was pretty thick, I let it drip out all night. I'll warm it up a couple more times then drain the oil again, I plan to pull the timer off and clean it at that time.

Hey Keith...well first, just because those coils are new, don't assume they're actually "spot on" regarding their tuning. Have 'em checked on some sort of tester, be it an HCCT or an ECCT, either way, check em out. You may be surprised. I've heard more than one tale of brand new out of the vendor box that they were way off. Just saying. As for your oil, well, the only thing I can hypothesize (man thats a big word for me this early in the morning!) is that whomever had the T prior to you wasn't very diligent about changing oil. Too bad, so sad. I change mine when it STARTS TO GET DIRTY, never minding a whole lot about miles...my '13 can literally go 900 miles and the oil is barely brown, but I change it then. The '25 which really isn't fully broke in yet, gets dirty right about 500, so there ya have it. I always put a little on my finger when I check the oil level when I know it's at least approaching 500 miles to see just how "opaque brown" it is getting. Oil is a lot cheaper than an engine rebuild as we all know. You may want to give the engine a good "flushing" per the black bible before you go putting new oil in it. Just my anal OCD opinion. You're on the track too re the timer. They do get dirty and tell you when it's time, especially the carbon brush variety.

Thick oil is no good in a Model T. Neither is dirty oil. Ford recommended high quality 20 weight oil. In modern oils, a good 10W30 synthetic oil is a good choice. 5W20 or 5W30 is fine in colder weather.

The best way to adjust KW type coils is to use an ECCT. Next best is an HCCT. The more accurately the coils are adjusted and matched, the better the engine will run. Poorly-adjusted coils will cause timer problems. Coils that are very badly adjusted can destroy a new timer in a few dozen miles of driving.

Fuel mixture needs to be set when the engine is fully warmed up, preferabley after driving several miles on a mild day. The mixture WILL change as the engine warms up. If set properly for general driving, it will be too lean for cold starting and running. That's why the car has a choke and a mixture adjustment. If you adjust the mixture (richer) for cold starting and warm up, re- adjust it to the best setting as soon as the engine warms up. (See Ford Manual)

Running the engine with the mixture too rich will quickly soot up both the spark plugs and the oil.
Cold starts, lots of idling, and short trips will foul the oil much quicker than normal driving, and may lead to plug fouling.

Generally speaking, don't start the engine unless you're going to drive the car at least several miles, preferabley on the open road for at least ten miles. This is especially important in cold weather or cool, damp weather.

Model Ts run best on magneto. A good magneto is a good thing to have. If your magneto doesn't work, a properly functioning generator is better than running off a 6 volt battery alone. A battery alone can only provide 6 volts, or less. Running on battery with a good generator will raise the available voltage to 7 to 8 volts.

A T will start on battery or magneto. Once started, the magneto is best by far.

Thanks TWrenn and Txgoat, your experience is the advice I am looking for! I wasn't excited bout the thick oil, I'll keep working on getting it cleaned out.

I do switch it to mag after it starts and lean it out some after it warms up, I'm just still trying to get the ear for the best fuel mixture and spark advance combination.

Unless the idle circuit is compromised by crud, the richness setting for idle is the same richness setting for driving (on a properly rebuilt NH). If the float level is too high or too low, you'll have a carb which is NEVER completely happy and unless you like taking your eyes off the road while driving to constantly fiddle with it, you will not be happy, either.

once the car is running and warm, unscrew the richness setting until it flounders and blows black smoke (if you really overshoot)...note where the mixture rod is pointing... now screw in/down the rod until the engine (speeds up) and then tries to die...note that position. Now back up/unscrew 1/2 of the rotation between "too rich" and "too lean". You're now set. Tomorrow, note the position of the richness setting, unscrew about 1/2 turn to start and once running, simply go back to where you found it (screw back in) and you're done. Once you know how your car will respond, and how cold it is, you may learn that the "unscrew" setting for a richer start may be more or less than I advised.

As far as advance, once car is running, advance until it knocks (on some cars) or until it stops speeding up...now retard it some until it slows down...advance slightly to bring up speed and now you're set. Same thing when out on the road, advance until it stops giving you more speed, drop some until you feel the power drop and then advance slightly and you're good. All of this will become automatic within a week of driving.

The total advance is a function of engine speed; the faster it is turning, the sooner the spark needs to occur. Climbing hard hills where engine speed naturally drops will mean that for best power, you will have to retard the timing to the speed of the engine - again that will come quickly with experience.

This advice assumes and relies on the fact that your carb is tip-top shape along with coils and timer. At this point, that is doubtful, though you will eventually get there. So long as it is missing and skipping, richness adjustments will possibly be a moving target, but once everything is just right, you will be able to get your car started and running happily very quickly.

Thanks Scott, that's where I'm heading, just trying to get a feel of where "right" is.

"Right" is not the same for all Model Ts. There are variations in carburetor and spark lever linkages and in individual engines, as well as in weather, elevation, fuels, and driving conditions. A carburetor in good condition needs little adjustment attention other than when cold starting, if then, assuming you're having mild weather.

Timing will need attention both when starting and running. Many carburetor adjustment rods have more or less slack in the linkage, so allow for that. Read the Ford owner's manual. Get the engine in tune, and pay attention to how it behaves under different conditions of weather, starting, and driving, and you'll soon develop a feel for what it needs to perform at its best.

Generally speaking, once the engine is started and warmed up, advance the spark about halfway down the quadrant at low speeds, or low speeds and heavy throttle, and run it near full advance at light throttle and at higher engine speeds.

Once warmed up, under most conditions, I run the carburetor as lean as will allow for smooth engine operation, with no hiccups or hesitation. The spark advance behaves differently when running on battery as opposed to running on magneto. Once the engine is started, if running on battery, you will need to advance the spark halfway down or more.
On magneto, the spark advance lever will typically have 3 "ranges", with the one nearest the top of the lever travel being suited for starting and low speeds, the middle range for low and moderate speeds, and all the way down, or near it, for higher speeds.

I think I'm getting closer on setting the spark and fuel mixture, hard to hear but there is a ticking, if anyone can pick it up, does it sound like a valve hanging up? https://vimeo.com/813401383

Sometimes a ticking at slow idle is caused by the pin through the front crankshaft pulley is loose. This is the same pin which is captured by the crank to start the engine. When this pin becomes loose, it will drop in one direction or the other with each half turn of the crankshaft. As the engine speeds up, the pin will stay on one side because of the centrifugal force. An easy fix is to take out the pin and lay it on a vise with the jaw partially open and hit in the center with a chisel or punch. This will put a small kink in the pin just enough to keep it in place. This looseness can sometimes be caused by wear in the hole at the front of the crankshaft. So a new pin will not help.
Norm

A valve sticking would probably cause a distinct miss and a loud tick or even a light knock. A sharp ticking or clicking sound usually indicates a slightly loose valve adjustment, which won't cause any problems in the short run.

A loose crank pulley or crank pulley pin, as mentioned, can cause noise.

A plug wire shorting can cause a clicking or popping sound, usually with a distinct miss. Any loose item on or around the engine can cause noise, and a loose fan blade or fan bushing might also.

It's not common, but something like a loose spark plug or damaged timing gear can cause a ticking sound.

I will do some more looking, it reminds me of a "something loose" tick, that's why I grabbed the horn, see if that would stop it. The fan is a major suspect, but the sound seemed to be coming from closer to the firewall. I haven't taken it apart but I'm expecting either a repair or a new fan, is seems to me like it's too loose, but not being familiar with the T's it may be normal. The crank for this car was actually under the back seat, minus the lug that engages the pin. That will be another project, even though the starter works fine it just doesn't look right without a crank handle sticking out the front.

Thanks Steve, I'm not really, I can't hear the ticking I was in real time, but I am hard of hearing, I was hoping someone else may be able to pick up on it. But you can hear the idle, I'm new to this and was hoping others more experienced may be able to give me an idea if I'm in the ballpark on settings and mixture, and what I might need to tweak.

Model T's are prone to making noises. The floorboards and firewall are not as insulated as on more modern cars which might also make noises which cannot be heard inside the car.
Does the noise come only when cold or does it continue when the engine warms up" Is it only at idle or when driving? Do you hear it more when going uphill, downhill or on level with the throttle slightly slowed down so it is neither pushing nor pulling? All these conditions will affect the knocks or noises you get in a T. Best to find someone in your area who is very familiar with Model T's to visit you or you visit them to get their opinion.
Norm

Before anything can be diagnosed (if it needs diagnosing) then it will require throttling the engine down (a lot!) from where it is. If your throttle lever is "up" all the way, then some linkage bending is on order along with unscrewing the throttle stop at the carb and taming that bad boy. Then you can retard the spark, hear the idle speed drop even more (along with more muffler bark) and bring timing back to about mid-point again and hear idle speed pick up (a bit).

Either way, you're going WAY faster than idle speed right now.

A fast idle speed wastes fuel and makes smooth shifting from low to high at appropriate speeds harder and imposes a lot of needless wear on the brakes and transmission bands.

A warmed-up Model T engine ought to idle at 500 RPM or less.

Less is better.

500 RPM = about 12 MPH in high gear, and about 4 MPH in low gear.

The lowest practical idling speed gives the best engine braking, and it allows for smooth shifting at any reasonable road speed. If your engine will idle steadily at 300 RPM, so much the better.

The second video posted, about 6 responses up, is at low idle.

Actually, it really isn't, from what I see and hear. Perhaps if I was right there, I'd agree, but from the video, it would seem that the idle could be and if it could be, it should be lower.

FWIW, it sounds pretty much like a Model T. If it was knocking, I think you'd know it even without the best hearing. These things usually run better and better after they "wake up". I'd drive it a bit and if you can, either tune the coils or purchase some rebuilt ones and if it is still popping, new coils and a fresh carb will almost certainly clear that bit up.

It has been running better each time, very little popping last run, I'll pull the timer next and the plugs again when I change the oil soon. The throttle was all the way down, if the idle still sounds fast then I'm assuming my fuel mixture or spark advance was still off a little?

Well nuts, that was the wrong video link again, this one is the low idle. https://vimeo.com/814951497