MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:37 pm**

1926 Coupe. Replaced the steering gear set and pins today. The three new gears were placed on the new pins first. When we attempted to drop the new Center gear in, it would not slip in. Two gears matched up perfectly but the third seemed not to line up at all, hence not being able to get the new center gear to fit. Did not want to force it. Placed in the old center gear and it slipped in perfectly. Would prefer not to use the worn center gear with the three new gears. Anyone have this experience when replacing the steering gear set? Any recommendations on how to overcome? Called it quits earlier but will try to play around with it tomorrow. THX

Posted: **Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:21 pm**

When I rebuilt my 27 TT column, I had to take some fine emery cloth to the pins to get the gears to spin freely and not bind. It has something to do with the black oxide coating on the gears. Wrap some merry cloth around a small dowel and clean up the inside of the gear hole too. All made for a tight but smooth gear case. It should allow the gears to spread out a few thou more and maybe give you the clearance you’re looking for. It did for me at least.

Brad

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:03 am**

There have been many discussions about the 5:1 fitment. It would be best to provide some pictures (gears, pins, center gear & pinion gear)
Here are some pictures to verify what you have. Just to make sure you have the right parts. All three gears should be the same
Notice the differences in the center to center distances of the outer gear post to the pinon gear post

: Scan0347.JPG (68.78 KiB) Viewed 4619 times

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: Steering Change Details.jpg (108.27 KiB) Viewed 4619 times

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: late and early case with groove .jpg (28.88 KiB) Viewed 4619 times

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:30 am**

The 27 coupe should have already had 5:1 gears, so mis-fit is not due to a mis-match of parts. Cleaning up the planetary gears, swapping them on the pins, cleaning up the centre gear and shift, may all help to achieve an acceptable running fit.

Allan from down under.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:09 am**

Those new reproduction gears and steering pinion are really nice, but spot on dimension and heat treated. Found that they sometime won't nest without a bit of 'running in', by lapping the gears.

So have used a smear of valve lapping compound, and spun that new steering pinion, with the gears meshed on their pinion posts. That will 'fit' the gears better, note the slight wear off of the heat treated black surface that happens when the gears are lapped.Use steering wheel nut on steering pinion, then a socket wrench and spin the assembly back and forth, clean off the compound completely, then grease 'em and ready to install.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:22 am**

Hi Dan
I’ve looked for Clover lapping compound in this area and the auto parts stores don’t seem to have it anymore. Maybe I didn’t look close enough. It was pretty common to find but seemingly not now in the last few years.
I have a can of it like you have but I’ve about used it up. Bet you have had that can a while.
Thanks!

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:57 am**

John kuehn wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:22 am
Hi Dan
I’ve looked for Clover lapping compound in this area and the auto parts stores don’t seem to have it anymore. Maybe I didn’t look close enough. It was pretty common to find but seemingly not now in the last few years.
I have a can of it like you have but I’ve about used it up. Bet you have had that can a while.
Thanks!

Yep, have had that can from the '60's You can still find partial used original green metal cans of it on eBay, about $25!

Or buy the new white can, the brand is now owned by Locktite.

: 9FE1A2BC-8A87-406F-9886-9E986CEF4834_4_5005_c.jpeg (33.23 KiB) Viewed 4525 times

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:22 am**

I just typed in 'lapping compound' on amazon and a tube of lapping and grinding compound came up. I did not see that 'CLOVER' was recommended by you folks before i ordered. I am hoping that the ordered tube is similar to clover.

Thank you all so far. I will play around with the order of the three gears and also have ordered the lapping compound and emery paper. The 5:1 gear set is packaged and sealed together so I am certain the parts are correct. The old set looks pretty darn worn in comparison to the coated new set.

THX! I really appreciate all the feedback.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:54 am**

Jeepbone1 wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:21 pm
When I rebuilt my 27 TT column, I had to take some fine emery cloth to the pins to get the gears to spin freely and not bind. It has something to do with the black oxide coating on the gears. Wrap some merry cloth around a small dowel and clean up the inside of the gear hole too. All made for a tight but smooth gear case. It should allow the gears to spread out a few thou more and maybe give you the clearance you’re looking for. It did for me at least.

Brad

Thank you. Ordered your items on Amazon. They arrive tomorrow and will give it a go.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:56 am**

DanTreace wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:57 am

John kuehn wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:22 am
Hi Dan
I’ve looked for Clover lapping compound in this area and the auto parts stores don’t seem to have it anymore. Maybe I didn’t look close enough. It was pretty common to find but seemingly not now in the last few years.
I have a can of it like you have but I’ve about used it up. Bet you have had that can a while.
Thanks!
Yep, have had that can from the '60's You can still find partial used original metal cans of it on eBay, about $25!

Or buy the new plastic jar, the brand is now owned by Locktite.

9FE1A2BC-8A87-406F-9886-9E986CEF4834_4_5005_c.jpeg

I bought a tube - Lapping compound. Permatex brand. And Emery paper. Will give it a go!!!!

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:57 am**

lirogo27 wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:22 am
I just typed in 'lapping compound' on amazon and a tube of lapping and grinding compound came up. I did not see that 'CLOVER' was recommended by you folks before i ordered. I am hoping that the ordered tube is similar to clover.

Should be ok, any fine grade lapping compound is acceptable. Just clean it off good in lacquer thinner or other solvent. That is best to lap and then rotate position of each individual gear and lap some more, that way they fit together when assembly is done in random order.

Using new is best, unless you can find NOS gears, but those are hard to find. Old gears are normally too worn for a good steering result. Sometimes you can re-use if lightly worn, using a new steering post pinion, but best to do the complete job right.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:59 am**

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:03 am
There have been many discussions about the 5:1 fitment. It would be best to provide some pictures (gears, pins, center gear & pinion gear)
Here are some pictures to verify what you have. Just to make sure you have the right parts. All three gears should be the same
Notice the differences in the center to center distances of the outer gear post to the pinon gear post
Scan0347.JPG
--
Steering Change Details.jpg
--
--
late and early case with groove .jpg

Frank - thank you. Agreed there is no chance on the 4:1. I will work with the proper unit and adjust accordingly! Appreciate all advice!!!!

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:06 pm**

DanTreace wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:57 am

lirogo27 wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:22 am
I just typed in 'lapping compound' on amazon and a tube of lapping and grinding compound came up. I did not see that 'CLOVER' was recommended by you folks before i ordered. I am hoping that the ordered tube is similar to clover.

Should be ok, any fine grade lapping compound is acceptable. Just clean it off good in lacquer thinner or other solvent. That is best to lap and then rotate position of each individual gear and lap some more, that way they fit together when assembly is done in random order.

Using new is best, unless you can find NOS gears, but those are hard to find. Old gears are normally too worn for a good steering result. Sometimes you can re-use if lightly worn, using a new steering post pinion, but best to do the complete job right.

wear on steering planetary gear.jpg

Dan - no the old 3 planetary gears are worn beyond reuse. I did buy a new stock 5:1 and yes mine look like the new stock pictures in this thread. All black coated. Will work them in with lapping ad emory. The old center gear was placed back in the car last night with the new gears - which helped the significant steering play I was having. I will work on the center gear during the week and update by next weekend. THANK YOU SO MUCH!

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:07 pm**

Allan wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:30 am
The 27 coupe should have already had 5:1 gears, so mis-fit is not due to a mis-match of parts. Cleaning up the planetary gears, swapping them on the pins, cleaning up the centre gear and shift, may all help to achieve an acceptable running fit.

Allan from down under.

Noted. YES and AGREED on the 4:1.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:43 pm**

I believe the steering shaft is also marked if it is 5-1. Confirm this. Yes its a 26 & SHOULD have 5-1's. But, someone could have changed it during the past 95 years.
When I find late steering columns @ swap meets, I open em up before handing over money & do occasionally find 4-1 parts.
Likely a much more recent parts swap but, just sayin.

Never assume. Trust but verify.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:38 pm**

Thanks Dan! So now it looks like I have a real collectors item with that double sided can of clover compound since it’s pretty old for some people these days! I bought that paticular can I believe at the Western Auto store that used to be in town!
Sorry for the thread drift! That was pretty much what was used for lapping valves, and other uses like, bearing fit and other things needing a refit. Would work well for the gears in a gear case too.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:43 pm**

Thanks Dan! So now it looks like I have a real collectors item with that double sided can of clover compound since it’s pretty old for some people these days! I bought that paticular can I believe at the Western Auto store that used to be in town!
Sorry for the thread drift! That was pretty much what was used for lapping valves, and other uses like, bearing fit and other things needing a refit. Would work well for the gears in a gear case too.

I noticed the can it’s in nowdays is one type grit only. Not double sided like the original kind with two types of grit. It’s probably not cost effective to make a double sided container anymore much less one made of tin.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:09 pm**

Using Clover compound on a case is fraught with trouble. Clover silicon carbide will embed into the bronze and provide a scouring action for many many moons long after the excess has been cleaned out.

A far safer choice in the case is Timesaver's (Green) Fine or Medium compound which will not embed and will continue to break down as it is used - it will cut for awhile and start to polish as it breaks down: https://ws2coating.com/timesaver-lapping-compounds/

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:04 pm**

speedytinc wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:43 pm
I believe the steering shaft is also marked if it is 5-1. Confirm this. Yes its a 26 & SHOULD have 5-1's. But, someone could have changed it during the past 95 years.
When I find late steering columns @ swap meets, I open em up before handing over money & do occasionally find 4-1 parts.
Likely a much more recent parts swap but, just sayin.

Never assume. Trust but verify.

JOHN GREAT GREAT comment. Leave to an OC T guy to say t=something worth checking ASAP.

Old center gear 9 prong. New Center gear 9 prong. Old planetary gears 13 prongs, new planetary gears 13 prongs. Now that is if I counted correctly with all the grease in there....but I believe I did.

The new planetary gears are currently in the column with the old Center gear as the new center gear did not fit more than an 1/8 inch in. Therefore, I am assuming that the requirement to emery paper and lapp will work and it is truly the coating or how the unit was cut.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:10 pm**

DanTreace wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:09 am
Those new reproduction gears and steering pinion are really nice, but spot on dimension and heat treated. Found that they sometime won't nest without a bit of 'running in', by lapping the gears.

So have used a smear of valve lapping compound, and spun that new steering pinion, with the gears meshed on their pinion posts. That will 'fit' the gears better, note the slight wear off of the heat treated black surface that happens when the gears are lapped.Use steering wheel nut on steering pinion, then a socket wrench and spin the assembly back and forth, clean off the compound completely, then grease 'em and ready to install.

IMG_2677 (1).jpegIMG_2671.jpegIMG_2673.jpegIMG_2674.jpeg

Dan. Can I do this without a vice or must it be in a vice?

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:53 pm**

DanTreace wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:09 am
Those new reproduction gears and steering pinion are really nice, but spot on dimension and heat treated. Found that they sometime won't nest without a bit of 'running in', by lapping the gears.

So have used a smear of valve lapping compound, and spun that new steering pinion, with the gears meshed on their pinion posts. That will 'fit' the gears better, note the slight wear off of the heat treated black surface that happens when the gears are lapped.Use steering wheel nut on steering pinion, then a socket wrench and spin the assembly back and forth, clean off the compound completely, then grease 'em and ready to install.

IMG_2677 (1).jpegIMG_2671.jpegIMG_2673.jpegIMG_2674.jpeg

Dan - yours looks like a 4:1. Correct?

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:33 pm**

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:09 pm
Using Clover compound on a case is fraught with trouble. Clover silicon carbide will embed into the bronze and provide a scouring action for many many moons long after the excess has been cleaned out.

A far safer choice in the case is Timesaver's (Green) Fine or Medium compound which will not embed and will continue to break down as it is used - it will cut for awhile and start to polish as it breaks down: https://ws2coating.com/timesaver-lapping-compounds/

the link is not working for some reason but I will find it. THX

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:19 am**

lirogo27 wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:10 pm

Dan. Can I do this without a vice or must it be in a vice?

Guess you could raise the steering post up out of the column/gear case, put vice grip clamp or fixture to keep it from moving, and then spin the gears with the pinion post…..but seems way too much effort and mess inside the T

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:21 am**

lirogo27 wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:53 pm

Dan - yours looks like a 4:1. Correct?

Good eyes

Yes, that was a new set of 4:1 gears for a ‘24 which uses 31” clincher tires.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:39 am**

Lisa

I just tried the link...while painfully slow, (always!) it works...give it time

I also tried other sites to buy the stuff and they all have 1lb containers for big $$ and you DON'T want that. A little bit of this stuff goes a long way and the factory will sell small amounts.

Langs and others also sell the stuff but they only carry the very fine stuff for babbit bearings and you don't want that, either, so don't be tempted

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:47 am**

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:39 am
Lisa

I just tried the link...while painfully slow, (always!) it works...give it time

I also tried other sites to buy the stuff and they all have 1lb containers for big $$ and you DON'T want that. A little bit of this stuff goes a long way and the factory will sell small amounts.

Langs and others also sell the stuff but they only carry the very fine stuff for babbit bearings and you don't want that, either, so don't be tempted

wow, there is slow and snail. Anyway WS2 Coating - Micro Surface Corporation are the same place

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2023 6:26 pm**

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:47 am

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:39 am
Lisa

I just tried the link...while painfully slow, (always!) it works...give it time

I also tried other sites to buy the stuff and they all have 1lb containers for big $$ and you DON'T want that. A little bit of this stuff goes a long way and the factory will sell small amounts.

Langs and others also sell the stuff but they only carry the very fine stuff for babbit bearings and you don't want that, either, so don't be tempted
wow, there is slow and snail. Anyway WS2 Coating - Micro Surface Corporation are the same place

Thank you Scott. And Thank you Frank!@

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2023 6:26 pm**

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:39 am
Lisa

I just tried the link...while painfully slow, (always!) it works...give it time

I also tried other sites to buy the stuff and they all have 1lb containers for big $$ and you DON'T want that. A little bit of this stuff goes a long way and the factory will sell small amounts.

Langs and others also sell the stuff but they only carry the very fine stuff for babbit bearings and you don't want that, either, so don't be tempted

Well I left a message for the company via phone and email. The site It would not recognize Studio City, CA as a valid shipping address. I tried arbitrary cities like Los Angeles - and still didn't work. So until I hear back from the company I am unable to buy this compound. Hopefully they will call me tomorrow.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2023 6:27 pm**

DanTreace wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:21 am

lirogo27 wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:53 pm

Dan - yours looks like a 4:1. Correct?

Good eyes Yes, that was a new set of 4:1 gears for a ‘24 which uses 31” clincher tires.

I am LEARNING! A newbie of a year and counting.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:52 pm**

lirogo27 wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 6:26 pm

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:47 am

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:39 am
Lisa

I just tried the link...while painfully slow, (always!) it works...give it time

I also tried other sites to buy the stuff and they all have 1lb containers for big $$ and you DON'T want that. A little bit of this stuff goes a long way and the factory will sell small amounts.

Langs and others also sell the stuff but they only carry the very fine stuff for babbit bearings and you don't want that, either, so don't be tempted
wow, there is slow and snail. Anyway WS2 Coating - Micro Surface Corporation are the same place
Thank you Scott. And Thank you Frank!@

That link may be an old one or its a regional warehouse.
This looks like their HQ 2hrs from me and runs very fast https://www.microsurfacecorp.com/

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:57 pm**

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:52 pm

lirogo27 wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 6:26 pm

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:47 am

wow, there is slow and snail. Anyway WS2 Coating - Micro Surface Corporation are the same place
Thank you Scott. And Thank you Frank!@
That link may be an old one or its a regional warehouse.
This looks like their HQ 2hrs from me and runs very fast https://www.microsurfacecorp.com/

Yeah. Now the issue is the shipping section does not recognize my address or Los Angeles for that matter so have a call into company to find out how to get this working! Stay tuned.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:30 pm**

One outfit is in Morris, IL and the other is in San Jose, CA

maybe the same umbrella corporation, but two entirely different companies, serving two distinctly different customer bases

just be patient...the Timesavers link will open in about 45 seconds.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:02 pm**

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:30 pm
One outfit is in Morris, IL and the other is in San Jose, CA

maybe the same umbrella corporation, but two entirely different companies, serving two distinctly different customer bases

just be patient...the Timesavers link will open in about 45 seconds.

I got to the checkout link by going through the parent company marketing page and back to the retail site. Unfortunately it is not taking any shipping address I put in. I will wait for the company to either call or email me back tomorrow. I did call the San jose location which is closer to me so we will see what they say!!! Stay tuned. THX Scott!

Posted: **Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:53 am**

lirogo27 wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:02 pm

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:30 pm
One outfit is in Morris, IL and the other is in San Jose, CA

maybe the same umbrella corporation, but two entirely different companies, serving two distinctly different customer bases

just be patient...the Timesavers link will open in about 45 seconds.
I got to the checkout link by going through the parent company marketing page and back to the retail site. Unfortunately it is not taking any shipping address I put in. I will wait for the company to either call or email me back tomorrow. I did call the San jose location which is closer to me so we will see what they say!!! Stay tuned. THX Scott!

4 5 23 - I spoke with them this morning. Their site crashed a few days ago and they are rebuilding it. It should be up and running within the next day or two. My order for 1 fine and one medium was taken over the phone. I should have it by Friday. Thank you so much for the referral and suggestion. They were very helpful over the phone. I look forward to trying the product.

Posted: **Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:51 pm**

Interesting to note is an odd number of teeth in use…sure, it is what works as ratio but at the same time...

Common practice in ‘shaper’ days was a no micrometer approach to manufacture…most especially on odd number of teeth gears.

The practice 100 plus years ago was to have an actual toolmaker produce the master mating gear to the major side of the tolerance and then mount it on a pin set jig with precision centers to the pins. The gear shaper operator would then walk his first of day run ‘in’ until the jig set was his go/no go gauge and what he was shaving slid on full…either with lash feeler or the mother gear made with the lash added…then the shaper operator lock the infeed on the shaping head. This was still common training for apprentice right up until the 60's/70's in short run shops.

Measure Over Wires became the accepted standard for gear manufacture as time went on and for anyone who has ever tried to calculate a MOW for an odd number of teeth pre-computer…that old jig way was many times faster!

Posted: **Wed Apr 05, 2023 3:28 pm**

THANK You George!

Posted: **Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:20 am**

WELL HELLO! Tom of the LB Club sand blasted the coating off the pinion and gears and we tested on a new shaft. ALL fit together snug snug snug. I am greasing all up this morning and putting the steering wheel back on so Fingers crossed everything works! THANK YOU ALL AGAIN.

MTFCA Forum

Steering Gear set 5:1. 1926 T Coupe

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