Camshaft outlook for 2023?

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Paperman
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Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Paperman » Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:28 am

Anyone in the know know the outlook for getting a camshaft this year? I see allot of guys looking for one (I'm one of them) and not much in the way of any hard facts on when there may be some back on the market. I also wonder if I guy like me can get one when they do make a run. Seems I read that a number of people are "on the wait list, buying a couple to have one in stock". If a run of 100 we pumped out today would that even cover the backlog?

HATE to put a used cam in a brand new engine. I had a fancy engine eat a cam on a new build, EXPENSIVE outcome.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Adam » Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:19 pm

The best thing you can do is ask the manufacturer directly.

An inquiry on an Internet forum probably will not provide accurate information.

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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:44 am

I believe a source of many Model T cams is Chaffin's Garage. I would start there.
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Shannon_in_Texas » Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:45 am

FYI, this past Friday I asked Mark Chaffin via text when we were working out shipping details on an item that I had purchased from him, "What is the current camshaft availability?" and his response was "No new. Regrinds are in progress."


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by ModelTWoods » Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:17 am

Shannon_in_Texas wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:45 am
FYI, this past Friday I asked Mark Chaffin via text when we were working out shipping details on an item that I had purchased from him, "What is the current camshaft availability?" and his response was "No new. Regrinds are in progress."
I think Shannon is right. I don't think Chaffin's is having their own NEW cams made, anymore. (Check their online catalog, but I think I remember seeing "discontinued". They still do offer the re-grind, when available. Antique Auto Ranch in Spokane, WA is another possible source for re-grinds. Last year, I purchased one of their "Montana 500" grind cams from them. I seem to remember a Dallas area member posting, within the last 5 years, that a well known DFW area engine rebuilder, also will re-grind T cams, but I can't remember the particulars.

I don't know why Stipe cams are not available. I can only assume that they can't get the steel for cores, but I didn't know the material for cores came from foreign sources. That is the only reason that I can think of why they couldn't get core material.

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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by DanTreace » Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:51 pm

Lot of speculation. Would behoove someone wanting a Stipe Cam to give them a phone call.

This Feb. Bill Stipe posted videos on his Facebook page of running cams, maybe a back log, or maybe not. Phone call would tell. ;)


Pics from Facebook post in Feb 2023

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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by BobUkPipedream » Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:58 pm

Hi all,

I have tried all the usual places too as I just went to fit my cam and realised that one lobe was badly worn (I should have been more precise in checking it when I took it all apart two years ago now). Not sure what to do now, I don’t fancy getting it reground considering my luck with dealing with ‘professionals’.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Joe Bell » Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:46 pm

Bill recently came out of retirement to run some cams, do not know if they are T's or A's, have not called him yet.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by NealW » Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:32 pm

Shannon_in_Texas wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:45 am
FYI, this past Friday I asked Mark Chaffin via text when we were working out shipping details on an item that I had purchased from him, "What is the current camshaft availability?" and his response was "No new. Regrinds are in progress."
Is Chaffin's no longer making new cams, or are they just out of new cams?

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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Mark Chaffin » Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:38 am

I can't speak for STIPE. I can tell you, like everything else with this current economy, material and other costs associated with manufacturing are absolutely ridiculous.

For example. We recently received several quotes to make a run of new camshafts. Both required a minimum of 100 billet blanks at $450 each. Machine operation $125 each. Lobe grinding $25.00 per lobe ($200). Total cost $750! Minimum retail would be $1,200. Ad cam bearings. You would be in it about $1,500! Not a good proposition at the current time.

We are currently finishings up a run of .270 performance regrind camshafts. .270 is the maximum you can regrind without greatly impacting the overall integrity of the camshaft. The current cost for a regrind and finish is $275. I run regrinds in all my cars and have never had any issues.

In the past, we did not resize the cam bearing journals and you had to custom fit the bearings. We are now grinding the journals to a standard undersize and having bearings custom made to fit. This will eliminate the bearing problem. Total cost for the reground camshaft and bearings will likely be in the $600 retail range. Much more palatable for the Model T community.

We are still a few weeks out with the first run of 30 camshafts with 30 more in the works. Hope this helped shed some light on the issue. As always, we appreciate your patience and support. :)


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Apr 27, 2023 11:30 am

Mark

HOORAY for information over speculation!

it's most encouraging to hear from a supplier, giving both background and status of this subject. Many thanks for the information and update. Now we have to get used to the Real World we live in, put on our Big Boy Pants and pay the Piper for his wares
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Thu Apr 27, 2023 11:43 am

I work in manufacturing. I've been dealing in the same parts for the last 36 years. I can't believe the prices I'm forced to quote these days! Many items have doubled, (or more), in price over the last 3 years and lead times have doubled as well. The amazing thing to me is, none of our customers have grumbled about it in the least. I guess they're just happy that we're still around and making this stuff. Getting harder all the time though, since many of our vendors are no longer in business. Anyway, Chaffin's story sounds all too familiar, sorry to say.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:16 pm

Jerry

material cost(s) no longer shock me...I make my fixtures from 6061 aluminum but most recently wanted to make some fixtures for my watchmakers lathe (I was copying a LEVIN accessory from a photo) and wanted the part to look as good as it performed, so purchased a 1 x 1 x 12 bar of 7075 aircraft grade aluminum. GADZOOKS! $25! Roughly 4x the cost of standard fabrication aluminum.

And, you know what? I bought it, and it made some gorgeous parts. Mr. Levin might even have approved.
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by BobUkPipedream » Thu Apr 27, 2023 5:27 pm

Mark,
Can I order or reserve a cam and bearings and will these have the built in advance like you did before?


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by MikeHall-T » Thu Apr 27, 2023 5:49 pm

I spoke to Davin at Smith and Jones and he may have an option on getting a batch of regrinds done. He's checking.
Anyone had any luck getting more info on Stipe? No one I have spoken with seems to know their status.

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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Mark Chaffin » Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:39 pm

Bob,

We will be picking up the first batch from the cam grinder tomorrow and then they will be sent over to have the cam journals ground by another source. Once this has been done, we will then send a finished cam to our bearing source who will nail down the tooling needed to make the cam bearings the proper size for all. Still few weeks of steps to finalize. Once we are happy with the results, they will be available with a steady supply to follow. Sorry, no back orders as the cost change rapidly. Unfortunately, this is the current environment we have to operate in due to the economy. I'll update this post as soon as they become available.

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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by AndyClary » Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:41 am

Good news from Mark. The Chaffins 270 cam has always been an excellent cam. I’m running two now and wouldn’t hesitate to install one in any T.


Andy

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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by DanTreace » Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:20 am

Mark Chaffin wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:38 am
I can't speak for STIPE. I can tell you, like everything else with this current economy, material and other costs associated with manufacturing are absolutely ridiculous.


This is the FaceBook post a few days ago from Bill Stipe, seems he too bit the bullet $$$ and received a stack of stock for making new cams. Believe both A and T cams are made by him, and other go fast Model A pieces , so perhaps a few more Speciality Cams are on their way to be sold. Hopefully a few Model T cams.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Mark Chaffin » Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:15 am

Glad to hear Bill is back in the game. He has the ability, skill and resources to bring a billet cam to market while still keeping it reasonably priced in this current economy. Thanks for coming out of retirement Bill!
Last edited by Mark Chaffin on Fri Apr 28, 2023 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Mark Chaffin » Fri Apr 28, 2023 4:33 pm

Bearing journals being ground and custom cam bearings to fit are in the works.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by KeithG » Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:14 pm

Hi Bill, It's good to see that you're doing fine and are back at work for awhile to fit a much needed need!

Cheers,

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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by BobUkPipedream » Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:42 am

Hi Mark,

Great news on Camshafts. I suppose the rear bearing will need driving out and changing too then. Mine is okay I believe, so I was going to leave and start reassembly today, but if I need to change it to fit the new re grind cam, then I guess I cannot reassemble now, so it will have to sit on the house sideboard a bit longer. I will just wear ear plugs a bit longer to avoid hearing complaints from the wife…

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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Mark Chaffin » Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:12 pm

We will only be grinding the front and center cam journals. Upon checking the batch of 30 camshaft for wear, the center bearings showed the most wear (as expected). The average being .744. Lowest was .742.

The front cam journal showed a bit less. The average was .745. The lowest .744. All the regrinds will be ground to .740 (.008 under stock).

The rear journal showed the least wear of all. The average was .746. As such, it is best to just leave the rear cam journal alone and just polish. The new bushings are a nice slip fit un-installed in the block. They do tighten up a bit after installation. Some slight final fitting may be necessary. The 26/27 style camshaft can be installed in most any year engine without modification.

Regarding Trent's comments. He is correct, the early camshafts vary all over the place. As such, we generally only offer the 26/27 camshaft as a regrind. We do, however, do a few early style camshafts for those who want them. You must run our thrust kit when using the early camshaft.

Lastly, our .270 performance grind camshaft has been perfected over time incorporating both degree timing and lift. You get the maximum benefit of the highest possible top end while not sacrificing torque. As such, you do not want or need to use an advanced timing gear.

We should have reground camshafts with bearings available in the next few weeks with an additional 30 in process. Thank you for your patience. Enjoy your weekend! :)


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Dan Hatch » Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:22 pm

Mark are you wanting cam cores? Dan

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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Mark Chaffin » Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:47 pm

Sure. We are always looking for good 26/27 cam cores.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by frontyboy » Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:54 pm

Cam Grinders in Tacoma Washington can and will grind model t cams. Their average turnaround time is 3 weeks. Reasonably price and very high quality work. They can build up worn lobes regrind to spec.

They have been in business for many years and know their business. I have had them grind stock, racing and odball cams all with excellent results. From my model t's to my hi performance Ferrari cams they can do it all.

just sayin'
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by geezert » Tue May 02, 2023 1:47 pm

I have 3-4 stock cams that I will bring to the Luray swap meet reply if interested
thanks
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by BobUkPipedream » Sat May 06, 2023 2:43 pm

Hi all,

Quick camshaft related question whilst I wait for a new cam: I am checking my rear bush which is either steel or cast iron. The rear journal on my worn camshaft is about 0.747 to 0.7475 so I think it has 0.5-1 thou of wear on the rear bearing journal. The mid journal was 0.7465. I put the cam back in with mid bearing only and measured the clearance of the rear bush in block to worn camshaft by rocking the camshaft up and down with a dial indicator measuring off of the bit of cam that sticks out the back of the bush and I have a consistent 3 thou of play. I believe I am right in saying that the rear camshaft bush to camshaft clearance can be up to 4 thou?

Given problems with material of new brass bushes and reaming, would you say I should leave my old steel bush alone?

Thanks


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by speedytinc » Sat May 06, 2023 3:58 pm

I dont believe there is a material issue with new bushings. Use a solid bronze/brass, not sintered metal. Some vendors sell the sintered, at least for other T applications.
Another option. Turn the original cast iron bushing over 180 degrees if it will still fit tight in the block. All the wear is @ the bottom from valve spring pressure. You may have to trim some of the inner edge. I think there is extra, unnecessary material, notched to clear the rear lifter.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat May 06, 2023 4:41 pm

John, while it sounds good, have you ever actually turned one over? There is a notch in them to catch oil and send to the oil groove and I think either turning it over or turning it over and cutting a new notch will not fulfil the original intent - FWIW
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by speedytinc » Sat May 06, 2023 6:02 pm

It has been a while. I dug around & see where the bushing is flush with the notch in the block. The current shop engine has a brass bushing no notch or oil grove.

I see that langs now offers a notched, brass bushing. (no oil grove?)

In the past I turned the bushing 90 degrees(not 180) & re cut an oil grove in the top side.
My thinking was, its better to retain the iron bushing & there is plenty of oil splashing around to lube the cam.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

Today I would go with the better Langs bushing if that bushing needed replacing & add an oil grove.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by speedytinc » Sat May 06, 2023 6:21 pm

P.S.. Scott.
You woke me up to the fact I may need to deal with the current motor's rear cam bushing. I dont have a new brass or iron bushing.
I see where I can make one from a used original tripple gear bushing. (not worth ordering one bushing)
Once to size, I will notch & oil grove it.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by BobUkPipedream » Sun May 07, 2023 6:40 am

Unfortunately I don’t have old triple gear bushing or gear to make one. At what point would you say it is too worn and time to change? I am guessing that the steel or cast iron (some people say it is steel?) bushing is tougher than the brass?


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Adam » Sun May 07, 2023 9:56 am

You can also make a rear cam bushing out of a used rear starter bushing (The long one). They are also the correct outside diameter.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by BobUkPipedream » Tue May 16, 2023 3:26 am

Well I bought a new camshaft bush. It has the cam follower clearance notch and the groove too. So next to fit it and I think I will buy a 19mm reamer as that will be just over 0.748. I will slot it into a 19mm inner diameter bit of tube that I will use as a sleeve for the reamer to a bit of 19mm or 3/4 outer diameter Aluminium tube. Then I will use the old camshaft bearings to centre the whole thing so that the reamer runs relatively straight to ream out the rear bush. Then I can use timesaver on the old cam to get the last bit of clearance and make sure it is straight.

Any updates on when camshafts might be available?


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue May 16, 2023 9:07 am

Bob

that notch is not to clear anything!

it is meant to catch oil and send it down the groove

be sure you install that thing correctly!
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by StevenS » Sun May 21, 2023 12:29 pm

frontyboy wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:54 pm
Cam Grinders in Tacoma Washington can and will grind model t cams. Their average turnaround time is 3 weeks. Reasonably price and very high quality work. They can build up worn lobes regrind to spec.

They have been in business for many years and know their business. I have had them grind stock, racing and odball cams all with excellent results. From my model t's to my hi performance Ferrari cams they can do it all.

just sayin'
frontyboy
Do you have an address?
1924 Model T Touring
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1930 Model A Pheaton
"It is great to be crazy ... It gives you a lot more options in life"

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Craig Leach
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Craig Leach » Sun May 21, 2023 9:24 pm

Hi Mark,
When did you start grinding the cam bearing journals on your regrinds? I have 2 regrinds I purchased from your dad. ( one in a engine & one
in resurve) maybe 5-6 years ago. I also have one I purchased last year that has bearings that fit very good on the internet. I would
like to know when you started doing this. I don't remember that I needed to buy special bearings when I purchased the first 2 ?
Craig.

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Mark Chaffin
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Mark Chaffin » Sun May 21, 2023 10:17 pm

This is the first batch. In the past, you would have to custom fit bearings on our regrind cam. Now the front and center journals will be ground to .740. We now have an exclusive source for new bearings that will be honed to .740 (.008 under) on the front and center bearings only. You will still be required to fit the rear bushing. We have 30 ready soon with 30 more also in the works. Grind will be the driver performance .270.

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Craig Leach
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Craig Leach » Mon May 22, 2023 12:02 am

Thanks Mark,
That was what I needed to know. I have only used the one cam as of yet, I'm very happy with the performance it gives & I'm looking forward
to using the other two in the future.
Craig.


BobUkPipedream
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by BobUkPipedream » Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:49 am

Hi all,

Don’t suppose there is any news on when camshafts will be ready?

On a side not someone just tried to scam me, they said they had a Stipe camshaft, I smelt a rat when they claimed to have a 1923 Stipe Speedster, so I asked if they had a cam chain and oil pump for a T… They did, so I asked if they had a power steering pump and surprise, they did and got quite insistent on me paying by PayPal friends and family…


Tim Williams
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Tim Williams » Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:16 pm

I bet they had a bunch of those rare Model T muffler bearings too :lol:


Scott_Conger
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:41 pm

Well it had to happen eventually I suppose...

when you are congratulated by a ChatBot for not falling for a human scammer, the world is about to end...
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


BobUkPipedream
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by BobUkPipedream » Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:08 pm

Kind of makes me wonder why/how the chat bot came here?
Strange new world…

Still waiting on camshafts…

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Mark Chaffin
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Mark Chaffin » Thu Jul 20, 2023 2:56 pm

UPDATE as promised. We now have a quantity (30) of our performance (Driver 270) regrind camshaft in stock. Retail price is $259.95. We also now have new camshaft bearings custom made to fit. No more having to fiddle with fitting the bearings. Give Dave a call at the garage if interested.
Last edited by Mark Chaffin on Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Scott_Conger
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jul 20, 2023 3:03 pm

Mark, that is such wonderful news, and the custom bearings is the cherry on top!

If one was to believe the public anguish over this subject, I expect you will not have any problem getting this product run sold and out the door.

Bravo to you guys, and the $$ and willingness to make this happen!
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured

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Mark Chaffin
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Mark Chaffin » Thu Jul 20, 2023 3:17 pm

Thank you Scott. Always appreciate your input on the forum. I run this camshaft grind in all my cars and love it. Hard to beat Henry steel and the price is the icing on top.
We have another 30 camshafts in the works. Hopefully, we can keep up the supply.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by BobUkPipedream » Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:49 pm

Hi Mark,

Did not see the message, but sent in my order today, hope I am not too late as I really want this car back on the road after 3 years of hassle and rebuilding! I am guessing that the cams come with the 7.5 degree advance built in?

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Mark Chaffin
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Mark Chaffin » Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:26 pm

No. Not that much advance but some to optimize overall performance. We recommend you do not use the advanced cam gear with our performance camshaft.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by BobUkPipedream » Wed Jul 26, 2023 5:10 pm

That’s good, I have ordered a normal gear for it. Did I get the order in time for this batch?

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Mark Chaffin
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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by Mark Chaffin » Wed Jul 26, 2023 6:59 pm

Ye sir. 30 more have been received from the cam grinder and are on the way to have the journals ground.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by BobUkPipedream » Wed Sep 13, 2023 6:38 pm

Hi all,
Received my Cam a couple of weeks ago - thanks Chaffins - now trying to finish the engine which as always is fighting back. I swear this car is cursed.

Thought I would mention a couple of my issues and work arounds. May not be the proper way to do things, but I am quite also fussy so I seem to be getting good results despite my unorthodox approach.

So the first issue I found was that I did not realise that the standard valves and lifters would be too short for a reground cam. I found this out after installing the cam and new lifters and lowering the engine into place. So faced with trying to lift the engine up (my speedster lowering method means the cam can not just be pulled out) and trying to get the cam out again (it went in with difficulty) and buying adjustable lifters, I opted for hardened valve lash caps from a VW. These have the benefit that they increase the contact patch on the lifters. I have done two cylinders so far and it does seem to work well, although as my valves are 1/64 oversize, I have had to grind the ends narrower a bit to fit the lash caps. I have set my clearances to 0.014 exhaust and 0.012 intake. That is loose with very slight drag on the feeler gauge, so depending on how one reads it, that may be 0.015 and 0.013. I wanted to be on the other side of 0.015 in case things settle after a few miles and the gap increases.

To grind the valves, I have a bench grinder with a block of wood both bolted down so that the wood is faced to the side of the grinder wheel (removed grinder guard). The wood has a hole tight for the valve stem drilled in by bench drill to ensure that it presents the valve stem at exactly 90 degrees to the side of the wheel. I then turn the valve as I grind to make sure the valve end face stays square and true.

Another issue I had was the camshaft bearing was slightly oval probably due to the person who cast it splitting it after casting with a coal chisel. I do not have any fancy press and die like I have seen some use to make it round again, so I clamped the bearing on my old cam in a vice. I tapped the vice jaws with a hammer and that seemed to get it back to shape. The cam runs smooth in the block with just the right amount of resistance and good contact with bearings, so I am happy with that.

Finally I thought I would say that I have no spring compressor, but found that a long piece of wood that reaches the top of the lifters can be used as a pivot point for a 5/8 or so spanner to lever the valve spring and cup up. Then a pair of needle nose pliers can be used to insert the pin and lash cap. Not as easy as a spring compressor, but not that difficult either and saves me a few more quid.

Well still a few more weeks of stuff to do, but I am waiting for the radiator to have a recore anyway, so hope for a November on the road date.


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Re: Camshaft outlook for 2023?

Post by BobUkPipedream » Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:30 pm

Not yet… I am just about ready to start her up now, just got to fit new seals to the rear axle, put coolant in and then cross fingers. I am a bit nervous as it has been a long journey. She should be running just before Christmas.

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