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Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2023 6:35 pm
by Model T Ron
My 24 coupe has a grinding noise coming from the rear axle and I think it's time for a rebuild. Car has excellent paint interior along with a rebuilt engine and transmission however it looks like the rear axle was overlooked. I am looking to do this right so comments are wanted along with a parts list and any tips and tricks.
Thanks
Ron
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2023 6:47 pm
by speedytinc
Plan on issues with the drive shaft bearing. Symptoms sound like a grenaded D/S inner race & bearing. Often the D/S itself gets damaged also.
Either get new, longer axles or do a strech.(move the gears more inward)
This compensates for expected hub wear.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2023 7:00 pm
by Humblej
I recommend the dvd set from MTFCA, T Tips, 5-1, 5-2, 5-3, Restoration of the T Rear End 1,2,3.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2023 7:15 pm
by John kuehn
The MTFCA handbook for rebuilding the rear axle will defiantly help. Study it closely for a good rebuild.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2023 7:21 pm
by CudaMan
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:19 pm
by Model T Ron
I was looking on Texas T Parts and they offer modern style bearings, longer axles, 3:1 ring and pinion and more. Has anyone built an axle with the parts mentioned? The engine on my 24 is very strong and I am sure she could pull the 3:1 gear. This is about the same gearing as Warford High and my 15 can pull that from a stand still......just need to ride out low gear a little more.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 12:31 pm
by Steve Jelf
I was looking on Texas T Parts and they offer modern style bearings...
In the MTFCA Axle book Glen is impartial on whether to use the original pinion bearing or the FP replacement. I will go with the FP bearing every time. For axle bearings I will stick with original Hyatts. I'm not familiar with all the modern replacements for those, but I have read of some of them being prone to failure.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 12:46 pm
by Stephen_heatherly
For me the best combination of parts is, fp pinion bearing, stock Hyatt bearings on the axles, and 11/40 gears. 3 to 1 will decrease your hill climbing ability, make take offs much harder, cause you to have to use low more and make your transmission brake noticeably less effective especially with an enclosed car. Unless you have a ruckstell, I'd stick with the stock ratio. A T in good shape with stock gears will easily run faster than it can safely be driven anyway.
Stephen
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 12:47 pm
by Scott_Conger
Not only have some modern bearing replacements failed, many of the more popular options require cutting the end of the axle housing off, thus destroying the housing for life if you ever decide that the modern replacement is unsatisfactory.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 12:49 pm
by Craig Leach
Hi Ronald,
I run a 3:1 in my speedster with a Ruckstell. The car is lite but I only use Ford on flat land & find it hard to handle steep inclines both up & down.
If you get behind someone that drives slow on a hilly road you may spend a lot of time in low peddle. I often wish I had gone with a 12 tooth
instead of the 13. The 3:1 effects braking also so concider Aux. brakes if you don't already have them. The car I'm working on now is getting a
Warford with a 4:1 with a stronger engine. Because I find myself in Ruckstell way more than I expected. Just one opinion.
Craig.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 12:57 pm
by speedytinc
Modern ball bearing conversions on axles can create a shear point @ the bearing edge. I have seen axle sheared failures. Original Hyatts spread the load over the length of the rollers via their wound nature.
Use original axle bearings. You may have to dig, but they are still readily available with minimal wear @ swap meets & here in the classifieds.
I rebuild with all original bearings. If I didnt have usable original drive shaft bearings, I wouldnt have TOO much trouble using A tapered timkin drive shaft bearing conversion.(fun projects type)
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 8:33 pm
by Model T Ron
Steve Jelf wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 12:31 pm
I was looking on Texas T Parts and they offer modern style bearings...
In the MTFCA Axle book Glen is impartial on whether to use the original pinion bearing or the FP replacement. I will go with the FP bearing every time. For axle bearings I will stick with original Hyatts. I'm not familiar with all the modern replacements for those, but I have read of some of them being prone to failure.
Can you expand on why you would go with the FP Bearing? I do not want to do any grinding or cutting so is the FP a plug and play part? As for the axle bearings I can see why the Hyatts make sense and Texas T also has new ones available.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 8:46 pm
by Scott_Conger
Ron
for info: no one makes a true Hyatt replacement...Hyatts are a flat ribbon wound into a roller and they will flex with the axle. Any direct replacement, modern bearing, is solid and will not flex. They are safe to use by the differential, but are not considered (by most people) to be safe alternatives to the original Hyatt's when used on outboard bearings (some dealers even specifically state this).
I mention this so that you can make the most informed choice as to what you want to install, and where...
The replacement kit for the drive shaft spool is an excellent product which eliminates a hardened sleeve, roller bearings, and obviates the need to very precisely trim and fit the drive shaft bushing to the U-joint. It is a pair of modern cone roller bearings which do a marvelous job and do not require any grinding or destruction of any FORD parts.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 9:24 pm
by Steve Jelf
Another little note on the Fun Projects pinion bearing: It comes in two versions — adjustable and non-adjustable. John developed the more expensive adjustable one for folks who think they need something to adjust. 
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 9:27 pm
by Norman Kling
The 3:1 gearing is not very good on anything other than level ground. I have a 22 Roadster which had that gearing when I bought it. It does have Ruckstell. Some of the problems are that when I start out in low on even a slight grade, I need to use Ruckstell because it won't get up enough speed to run in high. However when on a tour, I can go up a 6% grade in high at about 35 MPH. However on tours, the other cars can only go up about 25 MPH so I need to shift to Ruckstell. I can go up in my other cars and keep up with the group, but in the one with the higher gearing, it bogs down more on hills. If you have a heavier car it would be even harder.
One thing not noted in the above posts is to check the thrust washers. If they are babbit, be sure to replace with bronze. This can keep you from losing everything if the old babbit should crumble. The booklet will give you step by step instruction on aligning the gear mesh which is very important to keep things quiet and keep from shearing off teeth.
Norm
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:05 pm
by Model T Ron
Scott_Conger wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 8:46 pm
Ron
for info: no one makes a true Hyatt replacement...Hyatts are a flat ribbon wound into a roller and they will flex with the axle. Any direct replacement, modern bearing, is solid and will not flex. They are safe to use by the differential, but are not considered (by most people) to be safe alternatives to the original Hyatt's when used on outboard bearings (some dealers even specifically state this).
I mention this so that you can make the most informed choice as to what you want to install, and where...
The replacement kit for the drive shaft spool is an excellent product which eliminates a hardened sleeve, roller bearings, and obviates the need to very precisely trim and fit the drive shaft bushing to the U-joint. It is a pair of modern cone roller bearings which do a marvelous job and do not require any grinding or destruction of any FORD parts.
Scott
So far I just ordered the Axle book and plan on taking my axle apart. Pinion Bearing from Texas T sounds like it's worth the money. Please let me know if this is the correct one:
T2587-M • Pinion Bearing Cartridge
Quantity in Basket: None
Price: $104.95
I do not have any play in my rear wheels but I do have what I would call excessive gear noise. This noise is louder when going about 30 but when I back off on the gas I can still hear it. If I put the car in neutral and back off the gas it's the same noise. I do have a very well sorted 15 Touring and at 30 all I hear is the clicking of thee engine. My 24 Coupe is a night and day difference to my 15. It may be that the 24 is not broken in from a rebuild but the engine and exhaust are also much louder than my 15. I can deal with louder exhaust without a problem but a loud gear noise is very troublesome.
When I get the axle apart how can I inspect my Hyatts to see if they are still good? I think my axle noise is due to failing babbitt thrust washers but I will not know for sure until I get into the axle.
Thanks
Ron
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:15 pm
by Scott_Conger
Ron
you will probably be doing yourself a favor by finding and fixing the noise, but a cheapy endoscope will get in and let you see one of the thrust washers...if one is babbit the other probably is, too, and vice versa if bronze...
I didn't even know about the part you mentioned...T2587-m but see that it only replaces the HYATT roller bearing but not the thrust bearing...
I was suggesting the T2587 as in:
http://www.texastparts.com/mm5/merchant ... e=RearAxle as this takes care of thrust, rollers, everything
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:36 pm
by Model T Ron
Scott_Conger wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:15 pm
Ron
you will probably be doing yourself a favor by finding and fixing the noise, but a cheapy endoscope will get in and let you see one of the thrust washers...if one id babbit the other probably is, too, and vice versa with bronze...
Scott
I agree that just finding and fixing the noise would be the most cost effective way to go but aside from following the Axle book on a full rebuild I would just be feeling around in the dark. If the problem is not babbitt thrust washers I would be clueless as to what it is. All I know is its not normal and it's very loud.
Are you talking about just replacing the thrust washers and calling it good?
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:26 am
by Model T Ron
Would it be possible to just take off the rear wheels, disconnect the spring and split the axle to get to the thrust washers?
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 8:40 am
by Mark Nunn
No. The axle housings need to come off completely. Thrust washers need to be fitted (milled or sanded to thickness). You will spend 10 times the effort trying to do it in the car.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 8:46 am
by speedytinc
Model T Ron wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:26 am
Would it be possible to just take off the rear wheels, disconnect the spring and split the axle to get to the thrust washers?
Its possible. You can remove the wheels & left housing & pull the whole diff & axles assembly. You will have fair access to the D/S pinion & bearing.
Bad carnage will be obvious. Replacing the thrust washers & getting the gear lash would be a guessing game. New thrust washers, typically need trimming or shimming to get a correct fit.
IMO the proper way is to remove the whole axle/DS assembly. Do a proper disassembly & cleaning & specking of all the pieces. There will be more than one issue that needs addressing. Restore the D/S Then set gear lash. This is done with the axle housings in a vertical position. Get the book. This will show how to do the job well. You only need to do the job once if done right.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:31 am
by Scott_Conger
Ron
I wasn't suggesting replacing only washers...just that n endoscope would be a clue as to whether or not someone else has been inside and maybe replaced them themselves. Loud noise is commonly a broken hyatt bearing on the drive shaft allowing the pinion to shift around against the ring gear, or a worn/missing babbit thrust washer allowing the entire differential to shift, thus (again) allowing ring/pinion mesh to move around.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:30 am
by Stephen E. Jackson
Model T Ron wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:05 pm
Scott_Conger wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 8:46 pm
Ron
for info: no one makes a true Hyatt replacement...Hyatts are a flat ribbon wound into a roller and they will flex with the axle. Any direct replacement, modern bearing, is solid and will not flex. They are safe to use by the differential, but are not considered (by most people) to be safe alternatives to the original Hyatt's when used on outboard bearings (some dealers even specifically state this).
I mention this so that you can make the most informed choice as to what you want to install, and where...
The replacement kit for the drive shaft spool is an excellent product which eliminates a hardened sleeve, roller bearings, and obviates the need to very precisely trim and fit the drive shaft bushing to the U-joint. It is a pair of modern cone roller bearings which do a marvelous job and do not require any grinding or destruction of any FORD parts.
Scott
So far I just ordered the Axle book and plan on taking my axle apart. Pinion Bearing from Texas T sounds like it's worth the money. Please let me know if this is the correct one:
T2587-M • Pinion Bearing Cartridge
Quantity in Basket: None
Price: $104.95
I do not have any play in my rear wheels but I do have what I would call excessive gear noise. This noise is louder when going about 30 but when I back off on the gas I can still hear it. If I put the car in neutral and back off the gas it's the same noise. I do have a very well sorted 15 Touring and at 30 all I hear is the clicking of thee engine. My 24 Coupe is a night and day difference to my 15. It may be that the 24 is not broken in from a rebuild but the engine and exhaust are also much louder than my 15. I can deal with louder exhaust without a problem but a loud gear noise is very troublesome.
When I get the axle apart how can I inspect my Hyatts to see if they are still good? I think my axle noise is due to failing babbitt thrust washers but I will not know for sure until I get into the axle. I offered the help of a
https://ca.edubirdie.com/ that will answer your questions. For training, I offer the help of a LINK that will answer your questions. This resource will solve your questions according to your needs.
Thanks
Ron
Thank you for your help. I had a similar problem and solved it thanks to your information. After replacing the bearing, the noise disappeared and it became shorter.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:28 am
by Susanne
I would love - somehow, some way - to figure out how Hyatt actually made these awesome ribbon bearings all those decades ago... I don't know how hard they would be to reproduce, but imagine if we had some kind of resource for not the crappy repop solids but repros of the real deal...
I know it would take a lot of research... maybe even dipping into the Benson Ford (tho it's so darn far away now)... at least to find out HOW they did it and know if it's possible or not. I'm sure they had specialized machinery, used a formulated steel, proprietaru hardening technique, etc. but eventually our source of Old Old Stock Hyatts will dry up... grounding our T's foreverfor lack of a simple part... unless we do "something"...
But it's one thing we as T lovers (and drivers) desperately need, as the new (solid) ones available are like the old aftermarket Mexican VW parts - they (pardon my romanian) suck everliving eggs...
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:08 pm
by Mark Nunn
Susanne wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:28 am
But it's one thing we as T lovers (and drivers) desperately need...
Susanne, your comments are precisely why I have been holding onto a small stash of Hyatts for a future project. But then, friendship got in the way. Last night I gave a set of axle and pinion Hyatts to a friend who's building a depot hack with his kids. They will get more enjoyment out of them than I would.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:29 pm
by Susanne
Friendship is a good thing to get in the way in a case like this - it's what keeps our insanity, er, hobby alive!
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 5:16 pm
by Wayne Sheldon
One way to extend our limited supply of original Hyatt bearings is to use the lousy solid replacements in the center carriage area. The flexibility is not nearly so needed there.
I say that, however, I myself also prefer to used the original bearings in all four locations. I do use the best ones on the outer ends where the quality is more critical. I usually use ones on the ragged edge of "good" condition on the inner ones. The inner bearings do not take nearly so much abuse from the road, carrying the weight of the car through potholes etcetera, as do the outer bearings.
The torque and loading on the inner bearings is balanced much better with them close in and on each side of the carriage. With almost no axle flexing there, the solid roller bearing should work alright. However, for myself, Some years back I had some bad experiences with reproduction bearings for model Ts. Ever since then, I just have a tough time wanting to trust them. I know that most of our reproduction parts these days have been good for quite a few years. I just can't seem to forget the "new" pinion bearing that wore completely out in 600 miles because it was so soft. But that was forty years ago.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 5:49 pm
by CudaMan
I do the same as Wayne. I measure all my Hyatt bearings, put the ones with the least roller wear on the outside, and put the remaining two on the inside. Seems to have worked so far. I also always install four new Lang's "best quality" sleeves as well.
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 7:29 pm
by Jerry VanOoteghem
Susanne wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:28 am
I would love - somehow, some way - to figure out how Hyatt actually made these awesome ribbon bearings all those decades ago... I don't know how hard they would be to reproduce, but imagine if we had some kind of resource for not the crappy repop solids but repros of the real deal...
I know it would take a lot of research... maybe even dipping into the Benson Ford (tho it's so darn far away now)... at least to find out HOW they did it and know if it's possible or not. I'm sure they had specialized machinery, used a formulated steel, proprietaru hardening technique, etc. but eventually our source of Old Old Stock Hyatts will dry up... grounding our T's foreverfor lack of a simple part... unless we do "something"...
But it's one thing we as T lovers (and drivers) desperately need, as the new (solid) ones available are like the old aftermarket Mexican VW parts - they (pardon my romanian) suck everliving eggs...
My thought has always been to disassemble Hyatts and have the rollers centerless ground to maybe .006" or .008" undersize. Then, produce axle sleeves with thicker material to compensate. Of course, it would mean reassembling the Hyatts, either reusing the original cages, or having new ones made. Then of course, having the special sleeves produced. Most likely, the available material gauge thickness for the sleeves would dictate the amount of "undersize" for the rollers. Anyway, it's all easier said than done and you're not even having to make new rollers!
Re: Rebuilding Rear Axle on a 24 Coupe
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:09 pm
by Allan
Has anyone else had fitting problems when installing the new solid roller type on the inside? I found they would not go on over the un-machined part of the axle.
It seems a bit silly to have to take the gear off the inner end of the axle and reassemble it with the bearing in place.
Allan from down under.