MTFCA Forum

Hi All,
I looked at a T and was trying to figure out what year it is. Can anybody help out? Here are a couple of shots. Thanks for any help.
John

1921 or 1922, I hope this helps, Russ Furstnow

If it’s been kept in the open I’d be careful to make sure the wood skeleton is in good shape. If it needs wood it will be costly just to consider restoration.

It does have potential.
The body appears to be a three (rear tub) panel low hood. Anywhere from 1921 through 1923. Front fender has the bead through the center indicating a much earlier late brass era front fender. The windshield is a straight version with offset hinges, could be anywhere from late 1917 through 1922. The firewall is a low hood steel, used for only one year by the factory in 1923! A 1923 would have had a slanted windshield. However, the steel low hood firewalls were sold by Ford as standard replacements for the earlier wooden firewalls when they began failing due to age and mileage, so are often found on cars of 1917 through 1922.
Any way one looks at it, this car is a mixed salad of parts and years. Possibly, it could be made running and usable pretty much as is. As such, it could be a very fun car, and certainly a conversation starter!
If someone were to really fix it up, or fully restore it? The first thing they would have to do is assess exactly what it is. Figure out what year most of it is, and aim to correcting the pieces that are not right for that year.

To add to what Wayne said, the body itself is a 1922. Note the front top bracket is some what dropped for the front seat two man top mount. On a 1921 body that mount is straight and on a 1923 body that mount isn’t there due to the 1923 cars having a one man top and a sloping windshield.

Those front top mounts are generally original to the body because they mount to the body wood.

Here is some additional information on this car which is claimed as a 1915: The engine is clearly a 1915 (March 15). Front fenders look handmade or after market; beading is sloppy. The metal box on the running board has a battery which is wired to the metal dashboard. The front seat has a bead running horizontally across the back. Wishbone is attached under the front axle; a good thing. There are no gauges. Coil box has key (missing) above the floor. Rear frame crossover appears to be cracked. Is this a big issue?? It appears to have been kept out of the weather in its later life. Thanks again for all the informed thoughts! I’m thinking it is a 21-22. Is there a difference between the 21 and the 22?

If you’re planning to buy it check the engine number and hopefully it will have a title. It’s a low cowl body and it’s in the late 21 thru 23 range. It must have been kept out of the weather for the most part. It could have a replacement steel firewall for the low cowl style.
Looks to me it could be made to run without spending a lot of money.
Dating it exactly might not be real easy and if it has the original engine and it’s on the title
being in the 21 -23 year range that would help getting it fairly close.

Jimmy Hoffa?

rear crossmember is broken

I hope...

1. It's cheap
2. You're good at body work
3. You're good at wood work

It does look fun however!

That New York Model T looks familiar to me.

Years ago, I may have seen it advertised on Craigslist and/or it was discussed on either the MTFCA or MTFCI forum. Or, I'm confusing it with another car.

The more I look at it the more I think "no"...,

I rescued a '23 in the exact same condition...did all of the work myself...hundreds and hundreds of hours of body fabrication, welding, full rewood and after all of that, it still isn't painted. Valuing my time at $0 per hour, I still have around $6000 in the thing. There is absolutely no financial sense to saving a car of this era in that condition unless you're retired, have nothing better to do and plan on leaving a 1/2 done project to your heirs.

If it was '14 or earlier, it might be worth doing, but still, just buying a good car (any year) that is presentable will be the CHEAPEST car by 3x compared to saving a $500 rust bucket.

I'll repeat in different words: The Cheapest T you will ever own is the one that you pay the most for and is in the best shape, on the day you buy it.

No more than 2500-3000 dollars but that’s if it has a title. No title around 2000.00.
My opinion.

boy, I'd say $500-1000, max

no front fenders; no top frame; lots of body work needed; broken frame; likely no wood...

considering a running car can be had for $6000 in most areas of the country, even at $1000 purchase price, you'd have a really hard time making this a running and complete solid car for $5000...spend $3000 for it and now you have to make it complete and running and decent looking for $3000 which is even impossible-er.

Unless you're considering parting it out, I'd pass...this is the car that keeps all of the others on the road, not the car that is put on the road itself.

Thanks so much for all the feedback! It really has me excited to do this kind of research.
Another question: there seems to not have the curved as well as vertical bead on the side of the body by the rear fenders. Also, there does not seem to have that bolt that is just in front of the rear door that I've seen on restored cars. Could this have been a rear tub welded to the front of another body, or a non Ford manufactured body?
There is a 2 man top included. The after market white vinyl is in shreds, but the bows look pretty sound.
Thanks

No, this a 1922 body of the type used by Ford between 1921-1923 . In 1921 Ford changed the back section of the touring body now using three sheet metal pieces instead of the five pieces used in 1915-1920 that you are describing. As I posted above it is a 1922 body because of the dropped top bracket. The chassis looks like it is earlier because of the early type running board supports.

Might be a 1922 body on a 1915 chassis.

It ain't scrap, that's for sure.

No I don’t think it’s a scrap car either. Parting it out would be the thing to do for some. As far as “parts” are concerned it’s around 80% complete or more. But the issue would be for some it’s not a closely correct car. The 17 to early 23 Tourings look closely alike and the details are the difference.
The top bows look pretty decent from what we can see. A swap meet price for the bows would be $300.00 and they would go fairly quick. The complete chassis for what it is would go for 700.00 at least minus the body. Add it all up and it’s much more than scrap price.

I feel it is not the $$ it would take to "restore" this old Ford, It is that some would just like to see if it would run and drive, some would like to make a good looking T out of it hat would be usable for outings and some would like the challenge.

The best I can tell from all the great feedback, it is a 1922. Next problem... if It is to be registered as a 22, where would someone get a number for the DMV? It has been registered as a 15 from the engine block.
John

The block number is the vin number. DMV will not check Bruces book. Give them the engine number and tell them whatever year you want it to be. Probably more value splitting the body and chassis, selling the 22 touring body and selling or keeping the 15 chassis, so register it as a 1915.

Jeff, what makes you think this might be a 22 body on a 15 chassis? I have no idea.
John

NY John T wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 15, 2023 3:05 pm

The best I can tell from all the great feedback, it is a 1922. Next problem... if It is to be registered as a 22, where would someone get a number for the DMV? It has been registered as a 15 from the engine block.
John

From the Model T encyclopedia "The engine number was also the serial number of the car. Engines were numbered when they were completed, and for the most part went into a chassis within a day or so. However, some engines were assembled and numbered at branch assembly plants. Highland Park would ship a block of engine-number records to an assembly plant and these engines might be made weeks or months afterwards. Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the “engine” NOT the car.:
It is also a well known fact that engines have been replaced over time, the result is that things don't match.
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Everyone will agree not to explain anything to the DMV. It is more than likely that the DMV knows nothing about Model T engine numbers and dates. The only thing about using the engine number is that it does already exist in a global database of VIN numbers. Also in the great global VIN database there is no matching of Model T engine numbers to specific years, so you use the current engine number and a vehicle date of your choice, based on the body. When people look at the car they will date it by its appearance (like they are doing know), then if they look at the engine number you say its been replaced. Then they'll say you should replace it with a 192? engine to make it correct[image]
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States only purpose of a Title is to prove ownership of a vehicle as it is described by an Id number and a body style (make, model & date). Some Model T collectors preference is for the engine & body to match to the same year (as well as all the other parts).
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If you have a bill of sale or Title then you are better off using what it says it is - the id number (VIN/engine/serial number) vehicle make, model & date. Trying to correct these things often ends up in registering a vehicle as a "home built" instead of a vintage automobile
Here is NY DMV Title requirements
https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/proof-o ... -available

You cannot date the car by the engine number. Many cars had the engines replaced and the number on the block was given as a change to the DMV so it could be one year engine with a different year body. Some engine numbers were ground off and re-stamped with the number on registration and others were after market blocks without a number.

As for the body. Look inside the upholstery for rot especially along the bottom, where water tends to accumulate when parked in the rain for a long time. Also look for little specks like salt and pepper around the running board splash aprons and under where the car is parked. These would be left by termites or carpenter ants. The wood is built as a unit with the sheet metal tacked to the wood, so it would take complete disassembly of the body to replace the wood. Many people have done so.

That car would be fine for tours just as it is, presuming it runs well. If so, be sure to check the rear differential for babbit thrust washers which tend to crumble and cause you to ruin the gears and lose the foot brake. They can be replaced with new bronze washers and when properly adjusted will last for a long time.
Norm

The pictures dont help in identifying the chassis date. Look for how much is 15 ish. Motor mount, taper leaf springs. spindles without the flats, non generator block, S/N, casting date, pedals & rear axle(1year, 15 only), hogs head, wishbone, etc.
The muffler looks like an early 3 bolt.

A REAL 15 chassis would make it a better find.

It’s possible to date the car by the engine number IF it has a two section valve chamber which may indicate it’s pre 19-20 and the serial number is on the title. But that’s a big if and if there’s no title than it’s conjecture. All kinds of ifs, ands, buts and could be on this one.
For a finicky purist it would have to be almost perfect in details and worry himself getting it perfect. But for a tinkerer who could get it at a decent price it would be fun to try to get it to at least running and driving. But the price would have to be very reasonable considering what it is.

Look @ the motor casting date. I believe the 2 door valve covers went to 21. Non generator block makes it 19 or earlier.
Lots of clues to date her as I mentioned.

Would be refreshingly unusual to find a real 15 chassis.

Your picture of the engine shows a short engine number boss consistent with a 1915 engine, I can’t read the engine number. If the car has a good title as a 1915, matching that engine number in the car on the title, you could keep the chassis and sell the body and then build a depot hack, or a speedster, or a wood body pickup, etc. Or you could keep the body and find a 1921-1923 Model T chassis with a good title and sell the 1915 chassis. You should study the differences between 1915-1920 cars and 1921-1923 cars. In any case, consider that which ever way you go, you will be in for a big project, make sure that is what you want to due before you start with this car.

Here's my take on what it would be titled as. If it has a clear title that states 1915, then let the DMV think it's a 1915. Don't muddy the waters with them. My experience is, the less you tell them, the better off you'll be. Answer their questions in as few words as possible and don't give them anything more to chew on than that.

The engine casting number is 3 2 15 and the stamped engine serial number is 719687 which, I believe makes the engine manufacturing date as March 2, 1915. The owner claimed this as a "Brass Car", but the only thing I can see is the front fenders which, in my opinion, look like replacement/after market or home made. The beading is very crude in most areas.
So I guess if I were to register this car it would be as a 1915, but I would explain how it is not. Thanks again All,
John

It is a real mix-up of parts! Maybe some good stuff there?
The rear spring appears to be a tapered leaf spring, last used around 1917. However the pinion bearing "spool" appears to be the open style which began about 1919 or 1920. So we would need additional details to even know the approximate vintage of the rear end itself.
The running board brackets suggest the frame is 1921 or earlier. If the rear cross member is broken? Replacing it is easy enough, provided the car is almost completely disassembled. Replacing it without taking the car apart is not so easy.

The engine itself is still a big question mark. Never count on the serial number alone! Numbers often got changed! And it used to be legal to do so!
There are an amazing number of minor detail changes made to Ford's model T engine blocks throughout their seventeen year run! In 1912 alone, there were at least five different combinations of details during the one year! MOST detail combinations ran for at least about a year, but there were crossover times where old and new patterns were both being used.
The big ones are whether it is "pre" or "post" generator mountings (1919), "two" or "one" piece valve covers (long crossover time between 1920 and 1922!), and whether it does or doesn't have the embossments on the back of the water jacket for the hogshead to bolt to (1926 and 1927 have them!).
Only when the casting details of the block match the time of the serial number should anyone begin to assume a year based upon both!
In addition, how the numbers are stamped should be looked at. Ford was fairly consistent with the style of the number, as well as a centering of the numbers. The embossment should be looked at for any sign of having been altered (again, it used to be legal to do so!).
Ford sold whole engines with serial numbers, short blocks that may or may not have had serial numbers, and replacement blocks that did not have serial numbers. Some of those replacement blocks had "Ford" scripts (maybe one, maybe two?) stamped on the serial number embossment. Some (especially earlier) replacement blocks did not have the "Ford" script stamped on the embossment.
To help muddy the waters even more? Ford also sold both complete and partial engines to specialty companies that used them in farm, railroad, or marine applications! Many of those engines had serial numbers applied by the companies that used them. So mid 1920s engines are sometimes found with short serial numbers, sometimes beginning with one or two letters indication the company that used it originally. These are sometimes referred to as "backdoor" engines. However many of them did eventually wind up in the rebuilt engines supply chains.
Those backdoor engines have driven hobbyists nuts for half a century! I have seen a few where someone finds an engine with a four number serial number which they check on a serial number list and cannot be convinced they don't have a real 1909 engine worth several thousand dollars! Doesn't matter that the block has all the earmarks of a mid 1920s block and there are those two pesky letters ahead of the four numbers, They just cannot accept that their find isn't a 1909.

A few good pictures of your engine, both sides and the hogshead would help narrow it down.
Like Kevin M, I noticed the apparently short embossment which might indicate a 1915 block. That embossment got longer in late 1915 because Ford reached the one million number and THAT barely fit on the shorter pad. What I cannot see, is any sign of the casting date which should be right behind the serial number pad? A closeup photo of that area would help.

In the 1950s and 1960s, most of what people knew about model Ts was from people's faulty memories. And a lot of what people thought they knew was WRONG!
They did not understand the three or five panel rear tub difference. A lot of people "restoring" earlier cars would use later bodies believing they were just as correct. I recently saw a 1914 model T touring car for sale on eBay that was "restored" using an altered mid 1920s (three panel!) body! They're out there.


Well, once again I got interrupted about ten times trying to write something and a couple hours delay made some of what I wrote pointless. Take it for what it is worth.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 15, 2023 5:11 pm

The pictures dont help in identifying the chassis date. Look for how much is 15 ish. Motor mount, taper leaf springs. spindles without the flats, non generator block, S/N, casting date, pedals & rear axle(1year, 15 only), hogs head, wishbone, etc.
The muffler looks like an early 3 bolt.

A REAL 15 chassis would make it a better find.

Look @ all the other chassis parts. May be gem or maybe a big bista. Real 15 motor is very good sign. Early 15 mfg could sport a 14 style open car body.
The crew here could make the identifications for you. Would be a fun model T version of where's Waldo.
Take pictures of the pedals, H/H, front spindle/axle, rear end backing plate, motor mount, front pan snout, carb, etc.

If you don’t have dental records you may have to wait on DNA.


Andy

John if you are thinking about buying the car and it was registered in New York it won't have a title. New York didn't start with titles until 1972. If there is an old registration for the car there will be a place to complete a transfer on the back and that together with a bill of sale should be enough to register it in NY. I would not try to change the year if it was registered as a '15 but if there is no registration and you can get a bill of sale stating that it is a' '22 you may be able to get it through the DMV.

Thanks Val. Appreciate that. BTW I drove past your place in the other T last week. Was going to stop by to say Hi; but I didn't know if you're around NPT.
John

Still in Florida driving my T's down here! Won't be back until middle of May.