MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:52 am**

I can drive my 1914 Touring in 90 degree weather all day long without any issues, but if I stop moving and sit idling in a long line at Burger King the temperature rises so I decided to add a water pump to the car. I have the pump, thermostat, belt and the new gaskets, but there were no instruction included. Yes, I know it is a fairly simple procedure, but had some questions about the alignment and the tension of the belt. It looks like the pulleys are not quite aligned and I was wondering if that is correct or will it throw the belt? Also, how tight does it need to be?

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:09 am**

what you're describing regarding heat while sitting stationary, is pretty much normal.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:05 pm**

Bryan,

If you're not actually boiling, you really have no issues. Even cars with water pumps will heat up when idling in a drive-thru line at Burger King... or even McDonald's.

(And, if you're at a Starbuck's you're probably not driving a Model T, so no worries there.

)

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:12 pm**

A water pump may not help much, if any. Does the car have the correct fan and is the belt in good condition and properly tensioned?

Increasing idle speed a little and advancing the spark may be helpful in keeping the engine cool while sitting still with the engine running.

A good "free neutral" will also help.

A good radiator and clean cooling system is essential.

The biggest issue with keeping cool while idling, assuming the entire cooling system is in good order and the engine is in good tune, is getting enough air flow through the radiator. A water pump won't do anything to help with that.

If you choose to add a water pump, it should be mounted so as to allow the belt pulleys to line up. A water pump can contribute to fan belt slippage by reducing the belt contact with both the crankshaft pulley and the fan pulley.

The engine will not suffer from the coolant temperature reaching 200 to 210 F, so long as boilover with loss of coolant does not occur.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:33 pm**

You have come to the correct forum for advice...

If you haven't yet started a library of reference books, may I suggest that you pick up copies of Fahnestock reprints The Model T Ford Owner and Model T Ford Service Bulletin Essentials. Most T vendors offer them.

As for the water pump question, Suggest that you review Fahnestock The Model T Ford Owner , starting with pp160 on and pp 340 on. PP 340 discuss the water pump.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:50 pm**

bdtutton wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:52 am
I can drive my 1914 Touring in 90 degree weather all day long without any issues, but if I stop moving and sit idling in a long line at Burger King the temperature rises so I decided to add a water pump to the car. I have the pump, thermostat, belt and the new gaskets, but there were no instruction included. Yes, I know it is a fairly simple procedure, but had some questions about the alignment and the tension of the belt. It looks like the pulleys are not quite aligned and I was wondering if that is correct or will it throw the belt? Also, how tight does it need to be?

Not sure what water pump you have original or a repro. Out of curiosity do you have the engine pans (splash pans) installed? The thermosiphon circulation occurs when there is a differential in temperature of the coolest water at the bottom of the radiator & the hottest water at the top. When stopped the fan is the only means by which air can be drawn through the radiator. The water pump argument has always been at what point
does increasing the flow of the coolant reach the same temperature differential as before without it. Let us know how it works for you in Michigan
--
This link contains instructions for the Leakless pump but some of these two points seem to apply to any
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/cont ... 902-WP.pdf
--

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:20 pm**

Both the thermosyphon system and a system modified with a pump depend upon a flow of air throught the radiator core to cool the engine.

If the airflow is insufficient to carry off the heat rapidly enough, the engine temperature will rise, with or without a pump.

A modern vehicle with an electric fan will heat up at idle and sitting still if the fan fails to operate, in spite of haviing a large radiator and very efficient water pump.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:26 pm**

Thank you for the feedback....I have the original style pump and not the leak less pump. There were no instructions provided with the type of pump I purchased, but there is a lot of good information in the instructions you posted. Also...I don't have any splash pans.
.
I am just worried because I was asked to be in a parade in May that is over 3 miles long and it moves at a slow walking speed. If it turned out to be a hot day I am not sure the old girl could keep her cool at such a slow pace for so long.
.
I did have one other idea....I could make a bracket that could be quickly installed and removed that would have 4 small electric fans on the corners that would go around the main fan. The small fans would be operated with a switch if the car started getting hot. They would be hidden under the hood so no one would see them and could be removed after the parade.
.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:44 pm**

bdtutton wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:26 pm
Thank you for the feedback....I have the original style pump and not the leak less pump. There were no instructions provided with the type of pump I purchased, but there is a lot of good information in the instructions you posted. Also...I don't have any splash pans.
.
I am just worried because I was asked to be in a parade in May that is over 3 miles long and it moves at a slow walking speed. If it turned out to be a hot day I am not sure the old girl could keep her cool at such a slow pace for so long.
.
I did have one other idea....I could make a bracket that could be quickly installed and removed that would have 4 small electric fans on the corners that would go around the main fan. The small fans would be operated with a switch if the car started getting hot. They would be hidden under the hood so no one would see them and could be removed after the parade.
.

I am an advocate of the purpose of splash pans in the cooling process
https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php? ... ns#p271924
Causing additional airflow through the radiator (small fans?) will be more good than any thing else. DO IT!

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:25 pm**

bdtutton wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:26 pm

I am just worried because I was asked to be in a parade in May that is over 3 miles long and it moves at a slow walking speed. If it turned out to be a hot day I am not sure the old girl could keep her cool at such a slow pace for so long.

If your cooling is good when running, then the fan is circulating, even at low engine speed rpm's when moving slowly. Just don't have the spark retarded, and press on and off low pedal with the clutch lever up, so you don't engage high, bump someone, or stall out at low rpms.

A rise in temp is normal for long idle. The motor will be ok over 200 degrees, but if you have steam, that is a different story. Steam can arise if the coolant level is too low for the thermosyphon to work. Low coolant won't spill up and into the radiator upper tank to fall down and cool, it will stay in the block and just get hotter, and will boil and steam. Just be sure your coolant level is proper.

: Low coolant.jpeg (24.92 KiB) Viewed 6207 times

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:09 pm**

Return the water pump, they are trouble. If the Burger King outings are the main concern, why not park and go inside? Other customers would enjoy admiring your car out in the parking lot.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:59 pm**

After reading all the responses I am starting to wonder why I am adding a water pump even though the literature says it will help. People on the forum say it will not help at all and it will just cause problems. If the thermosyphon system is so great then why did Henry Ford put a water pump on the Model A?? Is there anyone out there that added a water pump to their Model T and can say "Here are the results I found when I added a water pump"?
.
Thank you....

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:51 pm**

bdtutton wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:59 pm
After reading all the responses I am starting to wonder why I am adding a water pump even though the literature says it will help. People on the forum say it will not help at all and it will just cause problems. If the thermosyphon system is so great then why did Henry Ford put a water pump on the Model A?? Is there anyone out there that added a water pump to their Model T and can say "Here are the results I found when I added a water pump"?
.
Thank you....

There will always be disagreement on any modification to a Model T. While I'm not a water pump enthusiast, I doubt if will cause any issues (worst case a leak on its shaft). When you read the Model A discussion you'll keep the pump as Henry caught onto the idea

On the other hand I am a proponent of the engine pans being needed to provide the correct air flow. for cooling stationary or at speed.
--
Everyone has their own experience with their own vehicle's radiator, coolant, driving conditions etc. so its a roulette wheel of decision

This is an interesting discussion related to a Model A using a water pump and/or a thermostat.
https://tulsamodelafordclub.com/Technical-Tips.php
Here is some of the discussion.
"The original design of the Model A radiator is for a Thermo-Syphon system used in conjunction with a water pump. The entire cooling system was engineered to use the best of both types of systems. The thermo-syphon system keeps the coolant in place until the engine reaches an operating temperature of around 180 degrees. The pump increases the flow of coolant when the engine is operating at higher speeds and the thermo-syphon system would not move the coolant fast enough to cool the engine. So the Model A was equipped to have a thermostat of sorts with the thermo-syphon system helping the engine warm up before the coolant started moving.
This still doesn’t answer the question regarding installing a new thermostat. The modern fuel of today requires the engine to operate at above 160 degrees to burn clean and with the most efficiency. "

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:53 pm**

Whether a pump does any good probably has to do with the style up pump, engine condition, and drivers perception. It is just the nature of the Model T to not like sitting for long. When I got my car, it ran very hot. The first thing I did was remove the Bergs water pump, and it never steamed again. I was running an original round tube radiator too.

-Joshua

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:59 pm**

Bryan it’s a tuff crowd when it comes to water pumps ha. So there have been many folks that have added water pumps to try and cool the engine while saving their pennies to buy a new radiator. Many have reported success, however I believe most of those issues were when they were driving versus waiting in line or extremely slow moving. Many have made some good suggestions on their experiences with & without a water pump & what practices they use to reduce the temp in those slow moving situations. Just hook it up and determine if it helps. You are an N of 1. If it works, great! If it doesn’t easy to reverse the improvement back to factory. Plus either way you have a neat experience, a possible nice wall hanger and the personal experience to share what your results were the next time someone ask. Best John

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:21 pm**

The reason Ford put a water pump on the Model A is that the Model A engine developed twice the horsepower from an engine of about the same displacement. What's more, the Model A cars weighed substantially more than the comparable Model T cars, and were typically driven at higher speeds.

The Model A water pump is more of a semi-pump than a proper pump. The Model A cooling system is a semi-thermosyphon system.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:06 pm**

I am just worried because I was asked to be in a parade in May

That's one of the reasons I don't do parades. I love them, and when I can, I park my T someplace where folks can come look and play "touchy feely" if they want. (Really- it's a driver, not a show car)
Other reasons I don't do parades: I do not have an aux transmission....stop and go wears bands prematurely (IMHO),
AND old cars are usually placed just in front of the screaming emergency vehicles.
Of course, I have many friends that do parade their autos..."different strokes for different folks".
I agree with others...pans help with the cooling airflow.
Good Luck to you....your toy - you decide.
Dave

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:38 pm**

In a parade you always want to be in the front, before any walkers, and before any band. Bands will stop in place and play a song while you overheat. If you are lucky the road is wide enough and you can make circles to keep the car moving. Make sure no one is throwing candy in front of you because a kid will see that little toosie roll and never see you.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:37 am**

I Love parades. I have had the privilage to take many dignitaries, grand marshals, celebrities, My kids & grankids in many parades. I have never
got to choose were I startedi in a parade. A 3 mile parade will take close to a hour with staging & traffic. Here in Arizona many parades are in
the high 80's & low 90's I have seen close to 100 degrees. The last thing you want to do is hold up a parade with a over heated engine it will be
a logistic nightmare. If during a parade you think you are in trouble get out at the first intersection you come to. A well run parade will have
them blocked off with security or traffic control that will be able to let you out. Don't wait till its to late. For the most part you will be at a
idle for that time. Practice before the parade. Timing, fuel mixture that works best and speed & gearing, if you have a Ruckstell or Warford
great that will help a lot you can go very slow in low pedal. If not you will need to low pedal, coast low, pedal coast. Try not to soft pedal low.
Have lots of water for you & the radiator ( not in the same container) If you are with a group of other T people you should have someone thats
willing to help if someone has trouble. Have a tow strap handy you or someone may need it. I have seen 2 T engines junked in parades because
of a lack of preperation. One started out without checking the radiator, the other had no oil in it????? I have seen some drop out because of
issues, pull to the side & start talking to the crowd about model T's. Most will think it's part of the show. Put them in the car to get their
pictures taken till the parades over and you can get help. Parades are one of the best ways to promote our hobby, be seen & get press time.
My most memorable parade was a WW2 memorial parade. I had the honor to carry one of the last remaining Navajo code talkers.
Oh and I do run a Dihydrogen Monoxide Thermo syphon promoting device on my T's.
Craig.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:01 am**

The reason Model Ts tend to run hot in situations like slow, stop-and-start parades or sitting in drive through lines in hot weather is lack of enough airflow thorough the radiator and over the engine in such situations. The Model T fan is not very efficient.

If your T has a good radiator and clean cooling system and you use the best settings for timing and throttle and the best technique for using the transmission, you may still have issues.

The best solution would be to increase the airflow through the radiator when standing still or moving very slowly, especially if you have a tailwind. A parade-only fan with a smaller than stock pulley would help.

Running the engine at a faster idle, maybe 900 RPM, to speed up the fan would probably help. Keeping the timing well advanced can help. 50/50 green anti-freeze will raise the coolant boiling point.

At the very least, be sure you are using the best driving technique and be sure your fan belt is properly tightened and your radiator is full. One way to maximize the radiator level is to run the car up to operating temperature, then fill the radiator to the top.

A coolant expansion tank can add a few extra square inches of cooling surface by keeping the radiator completely full at all times. A full radiator will assure maximum thermosyphon efficiency, too. The overflow tank would have to have a bottom inlet and be vented to the atmosphere with a vent at least as large as the overflow tube on the radiator. It would have to be large enough to accommodate normal coolant expansion. The radiator cap would have to have an air-tight gasket.

A metal lower water outlet connection instead of a rubber hose will help get rid of heat. ANYTHING that restricts airflow through the radiator core should be removed.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:42 am**

I have two parades I usually attend in July. One is near the coast in Coronado. It is quite long. Some of the T's which are not in good condition overheat and pull out of the parade. I have had no problems. I don't start until we are ready to move. Since I have starters on all my T's, it's no problem.I use Ruckstell and set the idle just a bit fast so I can push the low pedal without touching the throttle. I set the parking brake in neutral and just punch the low pedal to move up a bit then idle in neutral. Sometimes I hit the brake if I am getting too close to the car or others in front of me. Even though some others have overheated on that route, I have had no problem.
The other parade is in a mountain town Pine Valley. The route is up a slight grade facing east. The road is wide enough so I can zig zag along and use the same method of driving as on the other parade. Also no problem overheating.
If you do use a water pump, be sure the belt always stays on, because if it comes off with a water pump, the water will stop flowing even if the thermostat is open because the impeller will impede the flow unless it is turning.
As for the Model A, the pulleys had a v belt witch does not come off as easily as the flat T belt.
Norm

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:36 am**

Here is a fan option for parade driving. It is 13” diameter and fits OK behind a brass radiator

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:49 pm**

Everyone on this forum is amazing. There are so many different ideas, perspectives and experiences presented on this forum. I always learn more than I expected when I post a question on this forum. My favorite thing is that everyone agrees that a Model T will always work best the way Henry originally built it if you just get in it and drive it. Henry was thinking of people driving a Model T from the farm into town or driving to work....not walking speed at an idle for two hours in a parade behind a marching band that stops all the time.
.
I do have one more idea that may work....Since I am only thinking of being in one long parade per year I should go for a simple solution....Since the factory fan and belt can be pulled so easily, just pull them out and clip in a modern high capacity fan to the back of the radiator for the parade. The electric fan will cycle on and off as needed and no one will see it because it is behind the radiator and under the hood. When the parade is over, swap back to the original. If one of these electric fans can keep a modern car cool it should be more than what is needed by a Model T....and they are not very expensive.
.
Any opinions on this idea?
.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:10 pm**

my opinion is: that's an excellent idea

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:50 pm**

The only “wrinkle” with the electric fan is that I suspect they are all 12 volt. Perhaps your car is already 12 volt, then not a problem!

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:07 pm**

I just removed the water pump from my 25 Roadster and went back to factory.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:13 pm**

Speedway motors has
6 Volt Electric Radiator Cooling Fan-16 Inch Dia. Push/Pull-10 Blade

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:22 pm**

That's a good idea. Whether the fan is 6 or 12 volt, I'd run it off a full-size auxillary battery. Those things pull some serious current, and I wouldn't want one running off my starting battery. I'd want a "puller" fan that would pull air through the radiator and blast it over the engine.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:28 pm**

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:22 pm
That's a good idea. Whether the fan is 6 or 12 volt, I'd run it off a full-size auxillary battery. Those things pull some serious current, and I wouldn't want one running off my starting battery. I'd want a "puller" fan that would pull air through the radiator and blast it over the engine.

Just checked one of the 6v fans. 6/7.5 amps. so a fully charged 100 Ah battery with light on totally 13 amps hour run for about 7hrs

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:35 pm**

I find batteries to be undependable devices more often than not.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:13 pm**

Hi Pat,
I just checked with Elon Musk and he respacfully disagrees with you. The way things are going I hope he's wright. No offence I'm thinking he
has more skin in the game OK

Craig.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:18 pm**

He's into chemical batteries, flame throwers, and exploding rockets. It seems to pay well.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:25 pm**

A 16” fan won’t fit behind a brass radiator in my experience

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:37 pm**

Hey, Henry Ford, the Wright brothers, Thomas Edison & Robert Goddard had failures too.

Craig.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:58 pm**

Edison dabbled in chemical batteries ... with some success. The rest stayed clear of them as a base energy source.

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:43 am**

Les Schubert wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:25 pm
A 16” fan won’t fit behind a brass radiator in my experience

Oops did it from my phone. Speedway has 16, 14 & 12 inch 6 volt radiator fans. They sell some on eBay for less than the store & free shipping but charge for shipping on-line store about $35. Amperage is higher 8.5-10

--
--
Speedway also has small 10inch 12volt fans eBay vs Speedway on-line pricing for the same product ?
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R ... _PrefLoc=1
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/shop/spe ... r%3a235579

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:53 am**

What about the ~5v computer cooling fans and use the 6v battery to run them?

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:53 am**

RVA23T wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:53 am
What about the ~5v computer cooling fans and use the 6v battery to run them?
There are 2 problems to solve. The power source and enough airflow
Computer fans (6v or 12v) max out at 200CFM. doesn't mater how many you use its still only pulling 200CFM
Not sure iwhy you are set on 6volts you didn't indicate that. If you were to rely on the Model T generator then that's unregulated voltage , unless you have a VR, and could damage a 6V but might work a 12v computer fan. But only 200CFM don't think that's enough
--
The 12V Speedway Universal Electric Radiator Cooling Fan, 10 Inch is 620CFM . I couldn't see see how many amps it takes
Found this fan at Summit 1,000 CFM ought to do it & at 12V & 7amps.

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:38 am**

Just thinking out loud and about what I have in the garage I would try.

I should have said use a 6v battery not the T's 6v battery/system.

100 cfm per fan could be better than what the flow "increase" of a water pump might supply in a summer parade/stop-go driving situation. After a quick AmazBay look they could run at 0.26 amps, are cheap, and someone might want to experiment.

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:15 am**

su8pack1 wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:07 pm
I just removed the water pump from my 25 Roadster and went back to factory.

How has that worked? I've thought about doing the same myself. Is the car fully restored? Has it overheated?

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:06 pm**

RVA23T wrote: ↑
Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:38 am
Just thinking out loud and about what I have in the garage I would try.

I should have said use a 6v battery not the T's 6v battery/system.

100 cfm per fan could be better than what the flow "increase" of a water pump might supply in a summer parade/stop-go driving situation. After a quick AmazBay look they could run at 0.26 amps, are cheap, and someone might want to experiment.

Coolant Flow -The thermosiphon system is dependent of engine temperature while a water pump speed is dependent of engine rpm. So at low RPM's which has the great affect on the amount of coolant flow - that is the question. Then, with all things being equal (good radiator), air flow through through the radiator is what cools.
A matrix of of 100CFM computer fans is no more than each individual one, 100CFM. That's not enough but might be more than a Model T fan at and engine speed of 4 to 5MPH
https://help.summitracing.com/app/answe ... d-i-get%3F

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:36 pm**

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:28 pm
Just checked one of the 6v fans. 6/7.5 amps. so a fully charged 100 Ah battery with light on totally 13 amps hour run for about 7hrs

Only if you want to ruin your battery!

To ensure a reasonable life Pb cells should not be discharged to more than about 70% of their nominal capacity, thus in your example above you shouldn't run it for more than about 2 hours before charging.

With different chemistry (for example LiFeP04 - now becoming much more common as a starting/run battery) you could discharge to say 20% without causing undue harm. That said you must not flatten them completely.

Luke.

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:15 pm**

IMO, a car that runs cool when moving, but gets hot while sitting still, needs more airflow through the radiator. Make sure your radiator isn't partially blocked with debris and check your fan belt and fan. Be aware that Model T fan belt tension should be much less that what folks are used to with "modern" V-belts. Murray Fahnestock said that you should just be able to set one finger on the end of a fan blade and it should support the weight of your finger without the belt slipping.

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