MTFCA Forum

Does anyone have any information on 30x3 1/2 Budd wire wheels. I have them on a 23 Roadster and had my drivers side rear loosen up on me. The hub cap is a heavy nut and holds the wheel on the hub. Drivers side is threaded normal, passenger side reversed like the spindle bolts. Have I got that right? There is a special wrench that pulls a locking pin on the hub that keeps it from spinning. Any information would be helpful.

Its good practice with any quick demountable wire wheel to check the hubcaps for tightness prior to an outing.
I have a wheel center listed in the classifieds if you are in need of a spare.
Yes, there is a special wrench:

I have the wrench, I have had the assemblies all apart, I just replaced the babbit thrust washers in the rear end after they crumbled, but that is another subject. I am wondering if anyone out there has some original instructions? Not much useful information in search engines these days.

I don’t really like the way these hubs fit the front and rear spindles. I saw something saying they were really made for the Overland but were adaptable to the Model T. Do you run some of these Dan? Right thread on drivers side, left thread on passenger side?

Here is the wheel that gave me problems and the parts of a left thread rear hub and hub nut. You can see the locking mechanism for the hub but.

For some reason the only picture that send from an IPhone are taken sideways, must reduce the pixels.

I can also see that the hub nut has been bored out and slit in several places thru the thread. Then a ring inserted and soldered into place to reinforce what was no doubt a collapsed hub nut with bad threads. Not to say that this repair was not sufficient, but very likely the hub has similar wear and/or distortion of the internal thread.

I would start by measuring and comparing all your hub nut thread sizes with thread wires. Overtightened hub nuts can crush and reduce their diameter.

Also measure the diameter of your hubs on the outside of the threaded barrel section. If the hub nuts are overtightened the hub material can yield and increase it’s diameter. This effectively wears out the thread in the hub

Dan McEachern wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:47 pm

Its good practice with any quick demountable wire wheel to check the hubcaps for tightness prior to an outing

I somewhat agree with this statement… many believe this statement means that the hub nuts should be tightened an additional amount before every outing. NOT true! Hub nuts should be periodically checked to ensure that they have not loosened, but we need to avoid additional incremental tightening. Additional incremental tightening will eventually over torque the thread and the threads will begin to fail

That hub and nut are spare parts, not on the car. It seems these parts are not very common and there is little knowledge of their use. Perhaps they are worn out. I agree with you Kevin, that they can only be tighten so much. Another problem is the way the wheels actually fit on the mechanism, they are very difficult to tighten and I see no way to shim them. I may have to switch to Ford wire wheels.

Joe Reid wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:13 am

It seems these parts are not very common and there is little knowledge of their use. Perhaps they are worn out


Another problem is the way the wheels actually fit on the mechanism, they are very difficult to tighten and I see no way to shim them

These wheels are not relatively uncommon (for hens teeth). There were a lot of Overlands, and many sets of these wheels were saved because they are an “easy” adaptation to a T. I’m sure that parts would surface if you needed them (similar to Dans wheel center).

What is the issue with how the wheels fit to the hubs…? The Budd wheels have a very common design principal, two opposing conical surfaces provide repeatable concentric alignment for the wheel center. One of these cones is removable (hub nut), the other is oddly shaped to double as the drive mechanism (hub).

Common issues with quick demountable wheels is the wheel centers can stretch or hubs can collapse, allowing the wheel center to bottom out on the brake drum. If this happens, the wheel center will not seat on the inner drive cone and allow the wheel to wear the hub and even break the ratchet mechanism on the cap. A stretched wheel center can typically be identified and used as a front wheel reliably. Be cautious of the hub nut running out of threads too, have seen this more than once. If all of the components in the system are “good”, the ratchet mechanism is unnecessary.

Sorry if my post above was confusing.... its good practice to confirm that the hub caps have not loosened up allowing the wheel to come off the hub when you don't want it to. The purpose is a simple safety check, not to continually attempt to get the hub cap tighter and tighter. I've found it useful to apply a small amount of NeverSeez to the cap threads as it reduces friction when tightening. I've been running wire wheels on two cars for over 30 years and have never found the NeverSeez to cause caps to loosen up. Just my 2 cents worth.

Are the wheels on the correct sides, right threads on the drivers side, left threads on the passenger side? Kevin and Dan, your last posts are quite helpful.

Many of us wire wheel guys knew what you meant Dan… just wanted to clarify for those who are less experienced in this realm of accessories

I have the wheel reseated on the hub and retighten. Seems it may not have been on far enough for the hub nut to lock, perhaps emergency brakes were holding it up. Do I have the threaded hubs on the correct sides of the car?

Successful test.

Joe Reid wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:32 pm

Are the wheels on the correct sides, right threads on the drivers side, left threads on the passenger side? Kevin and Dan, your last posts are quite helpful.

The wheels don’t care which side, but the hubs do. Your hubs are installed consistent with the Buffalo design, but I vaguely recall a discussion that suggested an internal thread hub is mounted in reverse to that of an external thread hub. Maybe Dan or Layden have some insight. I’ll see if I can dig up the old conversation…

Dan to the rescue! From a post a while back

Dan McEachern
Re: Left hand thread vs right hand thread on front hubs
Report Quote
Post Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:42 am

Those are not common wire wheels, so my reply is of a general nature. Wire wheel hubcaps that have internal threads will have left-hand threads on the right side of the car and right hand threads on the left side. This would apply to Houk, Dayton Pin Drive and Buffalo wheels.
Caps that use an external thread will have RH threads on the right side and left hand threads on the left side. An example of this would be Dayton dental drive wheels.

Many accessory wheels utilize some type of ratchet or pawl locking mechanism to help retain the hub cap. These are designed so that the factory wrench depresses a locking lever in the cap allowing the spring loaded lock to release during installation and removal. Many reproduction Buffalo hubs and caps have been made over the years that did not have this feature, and its important to check your caps for tightness every time you take the car out of the garage.

Most knockoff style caps never had locks, and those seem to stay tight - at least as well as any other cap, but its important to check those as well.

A common issue that causes wheels to come loose is excessive paint buildup on the hub/wheel center mating surfaces. Layers of paint deform and move allowing the wheel to come loose.

Thank you Kevin and Dan. That seems to be the way the hub nut and hub lock together. It is the way they have been on the car since I got it. I just rebuilt the rear end last fall and must not have gotten the wheel to seat properly.

Joe- its always good to post questions that others may benefit from.

Funny story- my daughter and I purchased a T a few years ago that has Dayton dental drive wheels on it. When we went to go for the tet drive, we got in, started the engine and upon pressing low pedal, the car did not move- ??
Turns out the owner had the wheels off the previous day and when they went back on, one wheel was not all the way on when the cap got tightened.

Upon inspection and head scratching, the hub and cap was turning, but the wheel was not. The owner had taken the car for a drive just before we got there!! Always check the caps!!

Dans 2nd paragraph in the quote above states that external thread hub nuts will be mounted reverse of the more typical design internal thread hub nuts. More clearly, left hand thread on left side of car (driver), and right hand thread on right side of car (passenger). Your first post states that your hubs are currently mounted opposite this method. You may want to swap them around…

That is the confusing part, we are talking about threads on the hub nut, right? The other piece seems to lock only in one direction, the other direction is angled. They could be backwards, the hub nut should loosen in the direction of the lock/straight side which should be the direction the hub is turning in forward drive. The rear is not to difficult to change and the front can always stand a bearing inspection and repacking. Dan, where in Alameda do you live? I lived in Castro Valley from 4/68 until 5/70. My Dad was stationed on an aircraft carrier home ported in Alameda. Thank you for all the information, some of these accessories lack instructions and are becoming forgotten. Try and figure out the bracing on an ARPS Supersnowbird.

Joe, the confusion is added to by reference to drivers and passenger side. Depending on the country the driver can be on the left o r right side. If you stick to left or right side of the vehicle the confusion is gone.

Allan from down under, where the driver sits on the right side.

One more try on the threads issue. On a wheel with EXTERNAL threads on the CAP the right hand threaded cap and hub should be on the right hand side of the car and the left hand threaded cap and hub should be on the left hand side. Example: Dayton Dental Drive and Bud wheels.

For wheels with INTERNAL threads in the CAP, Right hand threaded caps and hubs should be installed on the LEFT side of the car and the left hand threaded caps and hubs on the RIGHT side.

Example: Buffalo, House, Houk and Pin Drive Dayton

Left and right determined by standing behind the vehicle and looking in the direction of forward travel.

Thanks Dan, I got it. I just have to wait for it to warm up again to get back to work, 30's and 40's are too cold on my hands.

I have an extra Budd wrench and a genuine Budd rear mounted spare wheel carrier if you are in need.
frontyboy(Seattle text 2ho6919-1949

Howard, I've always been curious over your multiple pseudonyms on the Forum, along with a place of residence that can't be found on a map. Where is Locchoy, anyway? Must be near Seattle. You're known in car circles by plenty of folks, so why the cloak & dagger? I've often wondered how good the deal would have to sound to actually make out a check to "dick dock".

Just sayin'

When the forum changed a while back and wanted personal information, I decided enough was enough. I list a defunct very old Chinese community from the late 1800's where I live now. The Chinese were imported to build railroads and dig gold mines. I respect the efforts and work they did to develop our country with no respect and horrible treatment.

When the forum was reworked for some reason my original handle and name were dropped and I never could get it back so I decided to have a little fun with the difficulties and irritations of the way the web works.

frontyboy wrote: ↑

Wed May 03, 2023 12:11 am

When the forum changed a while back and wanted personal information, I decided enough was enough. I list a defunct very old Chinese community from the late 1800's where I live now. The Chinese were imported to build railroads and dig gold mines. I respect the efforts and work they did to develop our country with no respect and horrible treatment.

When the forum was reworked for some reason my original handle and name were dropped and I never could get it back so I decided to have a little fun with the difficulties and irritations of the way the web works.

I'm interested in your Budd wheel wrench. The number you included for texting has one to many characters so I sent you sent you an email. Thanks, David.

What is the best way to convert Overland Budd rear hubs for use on a T?

I believe they welded T Hubs into the Budd hubs.

If you can get a inside hub for a wood wheel that has the axle taper and key way, you can fit it inside your wire wheel hub. You might have to machine the diameter a bit to press fit it then weld it around the perimeter for safe. Presto you have a modified hub for a direct fit to a model t axle.

Now if your using Budd Overland front hubs there is some easy machine work to do. Overland bearings are larger o/d that model t. I machine a dutchman to allow a model t bearing to fit snugly in the rear of the Overland inner wheel bearing. You will have to do the same on the outer bearing. For those of you not knowing what a dutchman is, machine a ring the diameter of the o/d of the hub(inner wheel bearing) once pressed into the hub then machine the inner diameter lightly press fit the inner wheel bearing inside the dutchman.

On the outer bearing you need to machine a spacer to put the front wheel bearing out on the model t hub. This will allow you to use a threaded inner bearing and the front spindle nut and cotter pin. there are several different sizes of Budd hubs for 30x3-1/2 wheels so do your home work first.

frontyboy.

Really enjoying this thread. I have had a set of Budd parts for years. Have just committed to have the outer hubs laced into new rims. I am fortunate to have the correct front hubs to suit the Model T but the rears are Overland and will require the Model T taper to be installed inside the larger Overland taper. I do have one original rear T hub which I would consider selling to fund the machining work on the Overland hub? The T and Overland rears are different in shape with the Overland inner being round and the T one a Star shape. Looking forward to having a full set now that I have a plan. Wish my caps looked as fancy as the ones on that neat looking runabout.

I have bored out Hayes hubs with flogged out keyways, and pressed in machined down T hubs with good tapers and keyways. These require a step in the hub and on the donor piece fitted. There is not enough "meat" in a Hayes hub to allow machining a single diameter for the T hub centre. These are a press fit and are scotch screwed once pressed home. There has been no need to weld them, but it should not be a problem to do so.

Allan from down under.