MTFCA Forum

Hello Everyone,

We are in the process of liquidating my fathers estate and am preparing to sell a 1912 T Touring. It looks like the title lists the car number as the "Vehicle Identification Number". Should it reference the engine number? The engine is correct for 1912.

Thank you,
Howard

I do not know what you mean by a car number, but in general, the Model T engine number is the VIN. It has been a long time since I registered my T in VA but as I recall it was the engine serial number that was used.

Correct. The publication Ford Owner in the 1920's discussed identification of the model T Ford based on the Motor Number. Another period automobile publication discussed auto theft and shows where to find the manufacture number. The article states that Ford numbers are located on the motor.

Remember too, that there was a forum discussion on using stamps to replace the original factory motor number on to reconditioned or replacement blocks.

If interested I can later jpg these references.

Depends on your state. My state laws say that if there is no real vin to use the engine number.
Check with your state web site. Some require them to issue a number.

don't mess with a thing, or you'll have a project for life and the car will remain with you forever

you have a title with xxxxxx
you have a Model T with body xxxxxx

that is good enough for any buyer and any DMV inspector

let the next guy make it "right"

as far as you should be concerned, the definition of "right" is a title with a number and a car with a period plate affixed to it with the same number

If the number on the block matches the number in the VIN space on the title, you are good to go. The location should be either behind or above the water inlet on the left side of the block, stamped on a pad.
VIN is the shorten form of Vehicle Identification Number and is the space used for, in our case, the cars serial number and is what most people are going to call the Model T serial number.

If I understand what you are asking, the 12 Touring has a tag with the "car number" usually affixed to the firewall and then the engine has a serial number stamped on it. It is not unusual for these numbers to be different. Frankly, I would think as long as your title matches one or the other of the numbers, you should be good.

Then there is the common issue of an engine being swapped out AFTER the car was originally titled, but this doesn't sound like your situation. In that case, if the title had the previous engine number and now you have a DIFFERENT engine number, that can be a bit of a headache.

Model A's and Model T's both use the engine number as a VIN number. I have changed engines and taken to the California Highway Patrol to inspect the engine number. They then run the records for other vehicles with the same number or whether it might be stolen. If no record on file, they will approve my new number and the DMV issues me a new title with the revised number on it. This is in California. Other states might be different.
On one "Basket Case" car I restored, I got a local person who is called "Tag Stop" who can get the car registered. I had the engine number checked out first and then got the car titled" non operation". In this state if we have a car in storage or in the shop when it comes time to renew the registration, we file Non operation for a small fee and then when we are ready to drive the car, we pay the full fee and get the tags. It took me around 10 years to get it running but still had no problem getting the tags. The reason I did this was so that after I rebuilt the engine, I didn't want to find out it couldn't be registered. Here it doesn't matter what year the engine is, you can still get it registered as the year of the body and frame.
Norm

The following may help pre 1920 Ford Owners. The article is from the Ford Owner June 1919. During the life of the Model T the FMCO would list production and motor number in their in house publication the Ford Owner. In May 1913 a list of motor number was published, it was used to identify the year of manufacture, provided the motor was not changed.

As we know all Fords look alike.

As the article states - "the real value of the motor numbers is to establish the definite date, ...on which the car was built. This motor number is stamped on the left side of the cylinder block....Many states require this motor number to be given when application for license is made." (Ford Owner 1919 June, page 63)

In the early years of Model T production Ford used a brass tag attached to the wood dash firewall with screws. On this tag it had a place that had a car number stamped on it. On the 1912 Model T engine there is an engine number stamped. Originally in 1909 these numbers were the same on a given car but by 1912 production these stamped numbers drifted apart. So if your Dad’s T has the dash tag and your State Title VIN matches the number on that tag you should be ok using this number in your auction listing. You could also list the engine number in addition to the State VIN. I wouldn’t try to get the State to change the VIN as it would just make for confusion and make a mess of things.

Howard Tomlinson wrote: ↑

Wed May 17, 2023 7:12 am

Hello Everyone,

We are in the process of liquidating my fathers estate and am preparing to sell a 1912 T Touring. It looks like the title lists the car number as the "Vehicle Identification Number". Should it reference the engine number? The engine is correct for 1912.

Thank you,
Howard

This is the form you will need to use to retitle in VA for a deceased Family Member referencing the information as it appears on the old title. If its Titled in a Different Stat then you need to follow that State's retitling law first. Also only the executor or administrator of the estate can do it.
https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/webdoc/pdf/vsa24.pdf

In the earlier 1900's Title Forms had positions for Manufacture(Make), Model & Engine/Factory number. As time went on "Engine number" was replaced with "Engine/Serial Number", then just "serial number", then the "VIN Number - 13 position" Manufacturer's standard and now "VIN Number -17 position" which follows a Global Standard. While the VIN format for newly manufactured cars is what is called a smart number with certain positions indicating Country of manufacture, Manufacture, model etc & a serial number it is just an ID pointing to the detail information - just like a Social Security Number. Now since many pre 1935(about) cars just used Engine numbers it is possible that when someone goes to title a pre1935 car using an engine number they may find that the number already exists for a different car. Then the state issues one for you after a lengthy discussion

So when it was necessary to Title a Model T the number used depended on the what the States Title form designated for a number and what number the Model T had available (engine, frame or body) and what the owner used. So while the preference amongst many Model T enthusiast is to use the engine number, the MTFCA Encyclopedia states "The engine number was also the serial number of the car. Engines were numbered when they were completed, and for the most part went into a chassis within a day or so. However, some engines were assembled and numbered at branch assembly plants. Highland Park would ship a block of engine-number records to an assembly plant and these engines might be made weeks or months afterwards. Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the "engine" NOT the car." Having stated that Titles were not always changed when an engine was replaced with one having a different number.

Before you proceed with retiteling the Model T - everyone would agree to leave well enough alone and not try to correct anything, else you'll create a hornets nest. Not sure if the State the car is currently titled in is the same as your state and what rules need to be applied without more info..
It will be helpful to know what year was the Title you have issued and what the printed fields on it reference. Also what do you mean by Car Number and where is it on the car

Here are some examples of changes to the Title form

Distagon2 wrote: ↑

Wed May 17, 2023 9:55 am

If I understand what you are asking, the 12 Touring has a tag with the "car number" usually affixed to the firewall and then the engine has a serial number stamped on it. It is not unusual for these numbers to be different. Frankly, I would think as long as your title matches one or the other of the numbers, you should be good.

THIS is the bottom line. All you gotta worry about "matching " on the title Greg just described. Don't over think it.

I would agree with Scott Conger, don't mess with success! If it's titled, it's titled. I had an Alfa Romeo that the state of Oregon titled as an "Alfar". I brought it to their attention. The choices were to shut up, or have an invalid title. I shut up. Governments don't fix problems!

I helped a friend buy a 1914 Model T from the original family two years ago. When he was looking at the car, he was concerned that the engine number did not match the number on the current title. The family had a lot of paperwork from new, including the original title and the original bill of sale! Again, the number on that title and bill of sale did not match the engine number but did match the current title. I told my friend to check the dash plate, and surprise! That was the number of the original title and bill of sale from the dealer. And it was indeed an aged and original dash tag. The car had never been restored.

My recollection is that either the original bill of sale or title said Car No. and that was the "Car No" from the dash plate. So even "in the day", not every dealer was using the engine number as the VIN or "Car" number.

Sorry for not replying today......no internet access at work.

I checked everything and here is the situation.

Engine Number 1220XX (The number is in the correct 1912 position, behind the water inlet)
Car Number 1156XX (Brass tag on firewall)
Title Vehicle Identification Number is 12668X?
( The X's are actually numbers. The ? is a letter. I didn't want to list too much information on the 'net)

Being the engine number nor the car number match the title, I plan on having the title changed to the engine number unless you all convince me I don't need to.

Thanks,
Howard

What you are saying is that the car has no title and when sold, will come with a bill of sale

when the car sells, whatever title you hand over is just so much old paperwork since it is not for that car (I think it would be a real mistake to hand over that title insofar as it does not go with the car)

finally, to your actual question: the car would be registered and titled under the engine #

since the value of a 1912 typically is well in excess of later cars, I think that getting a correct title prior to a sale is in your best interest to get the best price. Under the circumstances, I suspect that obtaining a "Duplicate Title" using the documentation that the county has provided will get you towards your goal. In retrospect, I think this is what you were shooting for all along and I just misinterpreted. If so, my first part of the post is not too useful.

Howard Tomlinson wrote: ↑

Wed May 17, 2023 8:37 pm

Sorry for not replying today......no internet access at work.

I checked everything and here is the situation.
Engine Number 1220XX (The number is in the correct 1912 position, behind the water inlet)
Car Number 1156XX (Brass tag on firewall)
Title Vehicle Identification Number is 12668X?
( The X's are actually numbers. The ? is a letter. I didn't want to list too much information on the 'net)
Being the engine number nor the car number match the title, I plan on having the title changed to the engine number unless you all convince me I don't need to.
Thanks,
Howard

If you are the Howard Tomlinson that works for the Virginia Department of Transportation my guess is that you shouldn't have any trouble in having the DMV "correct" the title via the substitute title process or https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/vehicles/#substitute.asp
Be aware that the "number" you use as the VIN may already exist for your or another non-Ford vehicle

Corrections
To make a correction, submit the following to DMV:
Completed "Application for Change of Existing Vehicle Record" (VSA 71) showing the correct information (vehicle identification number (VIN), business information, etc.).
Completed "Application For Replacement and Substitute Titles" (VSA 67) signed by all owners of the vehicle.
$15 substitute title fee.
Note: Additional documentation may be required when changing vehicle information, including an inspection of the subject vehicle.

Too much to read again since you updated..but if it were me, I'd get a NEW REPOP tag and number IT to match your title and frankly then you should be done!

Tim

Might you wish to rethink this?

since there is not a single number on the title that aligns with a single number on the car, I'd say that the title is not the one which belongs to the car. I personally would NOT try to use it or alter the vehicle to match, in any way, shape or form.

There is zero indication that the car was in any way fraudulently owned by the deceased, but forcing it to match a non-matching title by affixing yet another number to the car is, well, frowned upon to say the very least, and may in fact risk duplicating a VIN for another T somewhere out in the wild, which would turn an annoying issue into a very very big issue.

new VINs are attached to cars every day, to match a title...and it's a big deal when they're found out!

Howard,
I agree with Scott, just sell it with a bill of sale, let the buyer be responsible for the title. Move ahead with the sale and move on with your life.

Yeh Scott after a "re-think" I agree. But the poor sap will have a terrible time getting the number on the title itself changed from what (little) I know!

It's simply a vehicle with no title...I don't think anyone would change a title to a new VIN under any circumstances.

There may well be a title on file for this car on file...a simple search of the DMV and a request for "duplicate title" may well solve things.

I lost the title to my '13 in my move to WY. I combined a trip back to FL with a trip to the DMV there (had to do it in person!!) and showed my ID and got a duplicate title issued to me. And then promptly found the original upon my return to WY...now THAT was annoying!