Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
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Topic author - Posts: 1431
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Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Bruce V. S. suggested I try videotaping the racer in the dark to see how the cylinders are firing at slow speed. Here are the results. I'd appreciate any comments/observations. Maybe this is as good as it gets, due to high cam/valve lift and valve timing?
The first video is at regular speed. Initially the trailer door is open and the motor a little rich (just started). I lean it out a bit, and close the side door to get a better view of the explosions.
These are three stills, frame by frame from the slowed video (120th speed). The camera frames aren't slow enough to get every explosions, so I'll walk through it:
First, number 1 firing: Number 2 in the middle/end of an explosion with number 4 just starting: Number 3 firing:
Full speed video. It goes dark about half way through:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ynp7knaq8hvyu ... 3.MOV?dl=0
1/120th speed in the dark:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9qzdysav3omu4 ... n.mp4?dl=0
The first video is at regular speed. Initially the trailer door is open and the motor a little rich (just started). I lean it out a bit, and close the side door to get a better view of the explosions.
These are three stills, frame by frame from the slowed video (120th speed). The camera frames aren't slow enough to get every explosions, so I'll walk through it:
First, number 1 firing: Number 2 in the middle/end of an explosion with number 4 just starting: Number 3 firing:
Full speed video. It goes dark about half way through:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ynp7knaq8hvyu ... 3.MOV?dl=0
1/120th speed in the dark:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9qzdysav3omu4 ... n.mp4?dl=0
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Hi Rob, reat videos / pictures. It looks like #1 is putting out less blue flame that the others. Does that mean anything? I don't know, but guess that it doesn't mean anything.
Harold mentioned that the lift is 3.75 less the valve lash. Like the others said, that's probably what's causing the rough idle.
Harold mentioned that the lift is 3.75 less the valve lash. Like the others said, that's probably what's causing the rough idle.
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
I wonder if the frame rate is matching up with one of the cylinders firing, there some cylinders appear to be firing more but if the frames match up just right it may appear to not be firing
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Keith snd Mathew, thanks for your replies. I think I need to “hover” over each pipe for a few revolutions to really see the volume and color of each cylinder. I wish the camera frame rate was faster, but doubt in the dark it would help (if I can change it on an iPhone anyway).
Cheers,
Rob
Cheers,
Rob
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
#4 appears to be misfiring significantly
additionally, the weak orange flame shows fuel rich/oxygen starved situation and may in fact be waste fuel igniting on the hot exhaust pipe
not knowing anything about the cam, but understanding the purpose of the car, a smooth idle is quite likely never going to occur
since #4 shares the port with #3 and #3 is firing fine, if the coil ignition is working correctly, I would try a hotter plug or plugs
additionally, the weak orange flame shows fuel rich/oxygen starved situation and may in fact be waste fuel igniting on the hot exhaust pipe
not knowing anything about the cam, but understanding the purpose of the car, a smooth idle is quite likely never going to occur
since #4 shares the port with #3 and #3 is firing fine, if the coil ignition is working correctly, I would try a hotter plug or plugs
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Thanks Scott,
The car was cold and I think set a little rich this morning. Here’s a better video. I set the frame rate to 2x speed, and moved across all four ports. All are firing blue, with maybe #1 showing a little less flame? The first 30 seconds are normal camera speed, then at 1/120th for the remainder of the video:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p3sbc242ssdca ... d.MP4?dl=0
The car was cold and I think set a little rich this morning. Here’s a better video. I set the frame rate to 2x speed, and moved across all four ports. All are firing blue, with maybe #1 showing a little less flame? The first 30 seconds are normal camera speed, then at 1/120th for the remainder of the video:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p3sbc242ssdca ... d.MP4?dl=0
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
I am far from a mechanic, but would it help if you took the racer to the garage that dyno's the Speedster Reunion cars? Are they able to analyze the combustion products of each cylinder, especially since you are not combining the byproducts of all four cylinders into one exhaust pipe? Just a thought.
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
So it runs rich and has a big cam. You can see the effects of reversion in the intake ports. Cylinders #2 and #3 lean out due to the reversion. Since the carb is rich the center cylinders actually end up with a better mixture at idle as you can see by the exhaust color. You see this effect on the color of headers when running a big cam.
Andy
Andy
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Rob,
I usually only comment if I know the answer absolute...or actually have hands on experience. I normally refrain from speculation because it just causes too many rabbit holes. Since it is such a one-off I will say the following:
The cam is a high lift as noted, I don't necessarily like the profile and that level of dwell and would expect such profile to actually skip a beat at high speed---but not your question...you seem to have confidence in the high speed side...so hmmmm. Could it be that to achieve the high end you need to be rich to the point that you are too rich for the low end? Just a thought.
The basic issue with any early IC engine is that the engine itself will breathe horribly, and have a real sucky conversion efficiency where the only tool to get it up is 'more air'
That leaves carburetor and go back to what Kim said. If you don't like the snap crackle and pop at lower RPM or are trying to be overly fun and get each cylinder to fire independently to ear at idle...then just try a different carb and be Dr. House (better than, worse than, and eventually use the better)
I'm not sure the following thought is ready for prime time...but call it a gut...
1- In the earliest part of the 20th century they KNEW that practice did NOT follow theory in cam design...not just cam bounce, but rather the ramp up to lift portion of the cycle being sluggish in spite of the theory. The eventual solution was to take the theory, and subtract a fixed clearance for the place between 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock points where the egg just starts to form. (this may have eventually been the reason for eventual stem clearance, or 'heeling', I just don't know.).
2 - So I imagine that the cam is drawn right..they had no choice then but to go direct from drawing to make (before manufacturing process cards would and could override drawings on the 'how to make'). but what have you done with the valve stem? Not saying it is part of your issue...but if you have painstakingly seat the valve with theoretical 0 clearance on the cam...you 'may' be invoking some of the original problems of cam response?
3 - This one borders on esoteric but worth mentioning...but are your valve return springs true to the originals? You'd be amazed at how fast spring rate gets compromised as the coil wire diameter differs...or the OD differs...or the number of turns differs. May not mean a thing...but comes from the gut.
As always,
Good luck, you'll get it!
I usually only comment if I know the answer absolute...or actually have hands on experience. I normally refrain from speculation because it just causes too many rabbit holes. Since it is such a one-off I will say the following:
The cam is a high lift as noted, I don't necessarily like the profile and that level of dwell and would expect such profile to actually skip a beat at high speed---but not your question...you seem to have confidence in the high speed side...so hmmmm. Could it be that to achieve the high end you need to be rich to the point that you are too rich for the low end? Just a thought.
The basic issue with any early IC engine is that the engine itself will breathe horribly, and have a real sucky conversion efficiency where the only tool to get it up is 'more air'
That leaves carburetor and go back to what Kim said. If you don't like the snap crackle and pop at lower RPM or are trying to be overly fun and get each cylinder to fire independently to ear at idle...then just try a different carb and be Dr. House (better than, worse than, and eventually use the better)
I'm not sure the following thought is ready for prime time...but call it a gut...
1- In the earliest part of the 20th century they KNEW that practice did NOT follow theory in cam design...not just cam bounce, but rather the ramp up to lift portion of the cycle being sluggish in spite of the theory. The eventual solution was to take the theory, and subtract a fixed clearance for the place between 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock points where the egg just starts to form. (this may have eventually been the reason for eventual stem clearance, or 'heeling', I just don't know.).
2 - So I imagine that the cam is drawn right..they had no choice then but to go direct from drawing to make (before manufacturing process cards would and could override drawings on the 'how to make'). but what have you done with the valve stem? Not saying it is part of your issue...but if you have painstakingly seat the valve with theoretical 0 clearance on the cam...you 'may' be invoking some of the original problems of cam response?
3 - This one borders on esoteric but worth mentioning...but are your valve return springs true to the originals? You'd be amazed at how fast spring rate gets compromised as the coil wire diameter differs...or the OD differs...or the number of turns differs. May not mean a thing...but comes from the gut.
As always,
Good luck, you'll get it!
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
George, as always, thank you for your well thought out points and questions. No, unfortunately, I am only guessing on spring tension/size/turns. Regarding breathing, I forgot to mention (and video) the auxiliary exhaust ports on the other side of the motor. Although crude, they are controlled by a slide with a foot controlled lever. When open, the motor “breathes” much better (and smokes, and spews oil), to the point I have to richen the mixture while opening the slide.
With that said, I think we have the carb set up wrong, because richening/leaning doesn’t impact the motor (running) as much as it did. Rich Eagle posted a 5-ball extract calling for steel balls on an enclosed Kingston. We replaced the old steel balls with slightly larger bronze, because the seats were worn, and because the info I had at the time indicated bronze was used for all Kingston 5 ball carbs. I’m beginning to wonder if the larger, heavier (size and material) balls require more throttle/air to begin the “lift” process, meaning the need for a fast idle/speed just to lift the balls initially from their seats?
Of course, I know nothing, so my questions and opinions are purely guesses.
Thank you,
Rob
With that said, I think we have the carb set up wrong, because richening/leaning doesn’t impact the motor (running) as much as it did. Rich Eagle posted a 5-ball extract calling for steel balls on an enclosed Kingston. We replaced the old steel balls with slightly larger bronze, because the seats were worn, and because the info I had at the time indicated bronze was used for all Kingston 5 ball carbs. I’m beginning to wonder if the larger, heavier (size and material) balls require more throttle/air to begin the “lift” process, meaning the need for a fast idle/speed just to lift the balls initially from their seats?
Of course, I know nothing, so my questions and opinions are purely guesses.
Thank you,
Rob
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
I could be overly cute and with total tongue in cheek say...slap an NH on it until you are sure of your rich/lean needs, timing needs, and apparently borderline blow-by issues are all behind you. Then come back and start sorting through an early carb source?
I'm not overly smart on carbs...back in the day I could field strip and rebuild Rochester and Holley 4 barrels in the total dark if I had to just like my .45 or carbine but those carbs were much later in design and were plug-n-play pretty much...read...bulletproof.
Also, the other thing that no one alive knows...is maybe the original design didn't care about low speed idle? As long as it chimed at the top end it was a good engine? (Unfortunately, I once had a very early very good primer textbook for IC motor design that covered every aspect...but I reluctantly loaned it to a guy who also wanted to understand early IC automotive design with a passion, and he went and disappeared. I'm going to try and remember what it was titled, which will be a crapshoot...we'll see.)
I'm not overly smart on carbs...back in the day I could field strip and rebuild Rochester and Holley 4 barrels in the total dark if I had to just like my .45 or carbine but those carbs were much later in design and were plug-n-play pretty much...read...bulletproof.
Also, the other thing that no one alive knows...is maybe the original design didn't care about low speed idle? As long as it chimed at the top end it was a good engine? (Unfortunately, I once had a very early very good primer textbook for IC motor design that covered every aspect...but I reluctantly loaned it to a guy who also wanted to understand early IC automotive design with a passion, and he went and disappeared. I'm going to try and remember what it was titled, which will be a crapshoot...we'll see.)
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Rob
simply putting in heavier balls (assuming what came out was correct) will completely overwhelm the carb' high speed running, and pretty much screw it up for operating as it should at any speed. With respect to trying to get the carb to lift the balls, they lift to provide a leaner mixture at high(er) flow (open throttle), not higher vacuum (throttle closed). At idle or what should be idle, in general, you don't want to see anything lifting.
Advice to go to a different carb to sort out the engine is a very good suggestion, though an NH will be too small and not have both idle and high speed independent adjustability. Being that you have a side-draft manifold, a Stromberg OS-2 should be able to feed it, or possibly just an OS-1 for purpose of sorting out if this engine is capable of giving the idle you think it should (I wonder if "idle" is anything that FORD was interested in, as opposed to "wide open"). Either OS-1 or OS-2 will let you adjust idle mixture/speed independent of high speed and does not have any kind of economizer or other circuits to confuse or muddle things.
Since you're handcranking, an OS-1 will start easier with the smaller venturi.
simply putting in heavier balls (assuming what came out was correct) will completely overwhelm the carb' high speed running, and pretty much screw it up for operating as it should at any speed. With respect to trying to get the carb to lift the balls, they lift to provide a leaner mixture at high(er) flow (open throttle), not higher vacuum (throttle closed). At idle or what should be idle, in general, you don't want to see anything lifting.
Advice to go to a different carb to sort out the engine is a very good suggestion, though an NH will be too small and not have both idle and high speed independent adjustability. Being that you have a side-draft manifold, a Stromberg OS-2 should be able to feed it, or possibly just an OS-1 for purpose of sorting out if this engine is capable of giving the idle you think it should (I wonder if "idle" is anything that FORD was interested in, as opposed to "wide open"). Either OS-1 or OS-2 will let you adjust idle mixture/speed independent of high speed and does not have any kind of economizer or other circuits to confuse or muddle things.
Since you're handcranking, an OS-1 will start easier with the smaller venturi.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Rob, just a oddball idea : why don't you try a temporary setup with a Linkert carb from a 40s Harley, just to find out what your motor will do. The Linkerts are readily available, are very tunable with their adjustable low speed and high speed needles . It should give you a ballpark idea of what the motor needs and you can then find/fix a period correct carb to meet that.
Just an out of the box thought
On a side note : most racing motors are "bad idlers"
Just an out of the box thought
On a side note : most racing motors are "bad idlers"
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer !
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Those carbs are high dollar unless you get swap-meet lucky.
50's-60's m74's are more common & much more affordable. They adjust & function the same, but the later # keeps em cheap.
50's-60's m74's are more common & much more affordable. They adjust & function the same, but the later # keeps em cheap.
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
I'm undoubtably the least knowledgeable of all you guys, but idle and low speed don't interest me in a race car. performance at high speed is all that matters!
Ed aka #4
Ed aka #4
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Thanks guys. Ed, did I see you are going to Indianapolis as well as Lincoln?
Hope to be at both.
Around the lake Sunday. Seems to be running better. I’m starting to think my carb problems are cam related…
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mfjp93ivv4kdu ... e.MOV?dl=0
Hope to be at both.
Around the lake Sunday. Seems to be running better. I’m starting to think my carb problems are cam related…
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mfjp93ivv4kdu ... e.MOV?dl=0
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
20 mph is painful to watch. Good job Julie.
She does sound good Rob. Consistant. My speedster does not like slow either.
Ed, plan to see you in Lincoln.
She does sound good Rob. Consistant. My speedster does not like slow either.
Ed, plan to see you in Lincoln.
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
I can't make Indianapolis this year Rob. We'll be driving old #4 out to the MTFCA National Tour in Kansas, then up to the Speedster Reunion in Lincoln and then head on home. Hate to miss Indy., especially since you're going to be there. Not enough hours in a day etc.
Ed aka #4
Ed aka #4
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Ed,
Dean Y. and George A. are doing the same thing, KS tour and on to Lincoln. I told them, and am extending the offer to you, if you have any trouble I’m straight north and can be there in a few hours with a trailer. Lots of people in Lincoln can help if any spot repairs are needed. Now that the offer is on the table, nothing will happen. See you in a few weeks.
Dean Y. and George A. are doing the same thing, KS tour and on to Lincoln. I told them, and am extending the offer to you, if you have any trouble I’m straight north and can be there in a few hours with a trailer. Lots of people in Lincoln can help if any spot repairs are needed. Now that the offer is on the table, nothing will happen. See you in a few weeks.
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
I don't understand driving to the National Tour and then to the Speedster Reunion since they are running at the same time. Have you invented a time machine? If so, you need to share the design.
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Steve,
#4 is a speedster. Ed and Karen will be able to attend most of the National Tour. So they miss the goodbye dinner, not much of a loss. Then they get to come to the Speedster Reunion. Ed is in the Speedster Hall of Fame in Lincoln. I think if you owned a speedster you would understand. I do not know why the National Tour was scheduled the same week as the Speedster Reunion and the Montana 500. With all due respect, I would consider it poor planning. The Midwest Speedster Rally is that week as well.
#4 is a speedster. Ed and Karen will be able to attend most of the National Tour. So they miss the goodbye dinner, not much of a loss. Then they get to come to the Speedster Reunion. Ed is in the Speedster Hall of Fame in Lincoln. I think if you owned a speedster you would understand. I do not know why the National Tour was scheduled the same week as the Speedster Reunion and the Montana 500. With all due respect, I would consider it poor planning. The Midwest Speedster Rally is that week as well.
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Where is the midwest speedster rally?
"Those who fail to plan, plan to fail"
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Re: Running the Ford Special racer in the dark
Virginia...