tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

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tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Martin » Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:48 am

This weekend I installed new tubes into my new Riverside tires and put them on my new Australian rims. Some of the valve stems seemed to point straight, some lean outboard. Should I be concerned? The tube holes in the rims and the wheels are slightly outboard of center. The tubes have a blue stripe on one side. Is the blue stripe meant to identify which side of the tube is outboard? My tubes seem inconsistent.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:55 am

I don't know about the stripe, but the valves should go straight from the tire through the holes in the rim and felloe. To get them the straightest, put lube inside the tire, such as talcum powder. Inflate just enough to keep the tube straight but be able to move the beads over the rim and into place. fully inflate and then let all the air out as far as it will go without compressing the tire. Then pump up to standard driving pressure. That should take out wrinkles inside the tube and the valve should be straight. If you have them, it is good also to use a flap inside the tire between the tube and the rim. This will help prevent pinching the tube between the bead and the rim.
Norm

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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:16 am

It doesn't answer your question, but what brand of tubes are they? I find a blue stripe on Hartford, Custom Classic, and an unbranded tube. The stems on all of them are dead center. Another unbranded tube marked MADE IN EEC has no blue stripe. Its stem is also dead center.

Are your tubes all installed the same way, stripe in or stripe out?
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by John kuehn » Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:47 pm

Aren’t the blue strips suppose to be on the outside? Seems like I remember being told it’s there for that purpose. BUT I could be wrong. I’m sure there will other opinions about it!

If all tubes don’t have it and the stem is in the center what is its purpose?


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Martin » Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:41 pm

Thanks to all who commented. I don't remember the brand of the tubes, they came from Lang's. The holes in my rims are slightly outboard of center. Inflating the tubes outside of the tires showed me that the stems were offset in varying degrees toward the blue stripe side so I installed all 4 with stripes on the outside. I only have one rim on a wheel so far, the fellow guides the stem so it looks straight now. I'm probably worrying too much....I just hope I won't have to take those darn clincher tires off and back on again!

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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Will_Vanderburg » Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:36 pm

I just read that tubes with a blue stripe 2mm in width are made of Buytl. ALL butyl made inner tubes That’s their identification

The ones sold by Blockley are butyl

Butyl is a synthetic rubber
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by YellowTRacer » Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:09 pm

To answer the original question, the stems should not be crooked. I suspect that none or not enough powder was used during the installation of that tube/tire. The tube needs to be able to slide around as it's being aired up. Without powder it kinda sticks to the rubber tire and ends up with wrinkles and distortions. Johnsons Baby Powder solves the problem, and use as much as you want and it won't hurt a thing. With a bent valve stem it might shorten the life of that tube as the stem gets cut into or worn by rubbing against the rim or wheel.

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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by John kuehn » Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:39 pm

When airing up a tire I do it slowly and if the stem isn’t exactly straight I let the air out of the tire and use a rubber hammer and slowly bump it around till it straightens out.
But to do that the tire should have some powder inside the tire or at least some soap on the tire bead.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Martin » Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:36 pm

My tubes are "Custom Classic" brand. The stems were noticeably offset and leaning toward the blue stripe side when inflated before putting them into the tires, but all were tilted different amounts so it does not seem to be intentional. Lang's told me they don't know what the blue stripe signifies. I did not use talc or flaps but used Ru-glyde on the tires and rims.
I've decided that they will be just fine, I'll find something else to worry about!

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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Will_Vanderburg » Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:48 pm

Martin wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:36 pm
My tubes are "Custom Classic" brand. The stems were noticeably offset and leaning toward the blue stripe side when inflated before putting them into the tires, but all were tilted different amounts so it does not seem to be intentional. Lang's told me they don't know what the blue stripe signifies. I did not use talc or flaps but used Ru-glyde on the tires and rims.
I've decided that they will be just fine, I'll find something else to worry about!

Read my post above. The blue stripe signifies a tube made from Butyl, a synthetic rubber
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by DanTreace » Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:40 pm

Martin wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:36 pm
The stems were noticeably offset and leaning toward the blue stripe side when inflated before putting them into the tires,
I've decided that they will be just fine, I'll find something else to worry about!

Yes, inflating a tube that isn't inside a tire will make the tube distort in many places, the tube will shape to the inside of the tire casing when inflated.

Follow the advice to slide the tube and tire around the rim when deflated, so the valve stem is perpendicular to the valve hole in the felloe. Place the tube only very lightly inflated, much struggle happens if the tube is fully rounded.
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:19 am

My tubes are "Custom Classic" brand.

There was a run of those that were prone to splitting. I found out about that when I took one out of the tire to patch it for the seventh time and noticed the split seam. Those bad tubes may all be gone from the supply chain by now, but I still avoid that brand just to be sure I don't get another splitter.
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Adam » Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:15 am

If the hole in the new rim doesn’t line up with the hole in your wheel felloe, then the rim is made wrong and should be sent back.

If the stem is stressed (being pulled one way or the other), that is usually the spot where the rubber eventually gets deteriorated and the tube begins to leak, often this takes a few or several years, but sometimes happens pretty quick.

If you aren’t using flaps… When you start having tire issues or tube issues, you should try them.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:15 am

I just mounted my new Firestone tires, with new tubes and flaps onto my new rims from Australia too. The stem holes are off center a bit. The original ones are in the center. I think they will be fine. This is the first time for me working with clincher rims. The problem that I am having is that the rims are not going all the way onto the felloes. Have you put yours on the wheels yet?
Last edited by Scott C. on Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Allan » Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:36 am

Scott, what are the indications that the rims are not going right onto the felloe? If you are reading that the lugs will not impinge on the outer face of the felloe, that is how they are supposed to be.

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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:59 am

Allan, just the opposite. They will not seat against the felloe on the back side. That causes them to have runout. There is a bead rolled into the rim and it will not let the rim all the way on the felloe.
Last edited by Scott C. on Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:05 pm

Here are some pictures. I tried another rim on that same wheel with the same results. Is it possible that I have a bent felloe?

rims 4.jpg
rims 3.jpg
rims 2.jpg
rims 1.jpg
Last edited by Scott C. on Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:31 pm

If those are 3 of the rims off your car, they are all different manufacturers so that isn't helping out with the rim seating on the wheel issue. I see one Hayes with the "foot" that seats into a matching cut-out on the felloe - a copy of a later parts list shows the difference in rims.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:41 pm

The one on the top and on the right is the new one. The next one came off that wheel. The bottom and left one is from the other rear wheel.

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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:53 pm

While rims eventually were standardized, for a few years wheels from the different makers required matching rims. The variety of wheels and rims coincided with the years of peak production, so there are a lot of the various types around. I believe Hayes is most plentiful.
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:01 pm

The Hayes rim & felloe are matched.
Attachments
Hayes wheel.jpg
Hayes footed lug.JPG


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:33 am

I found this picture. It appears that my new rims are the Ford type 2845B. I have read that the Ford and the Hayes should work interchangeably. So, my next question is How to identify the different felloes? I see the notch in that Hayes felloe in your picture. What else do I need to look at?

667950.jpg


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Allan » Mon Jun 12, 2023 7:47 am

Scott, your new rim is not a Ford 2845B. The 2845B rim has a solid steel bead around the circumference and a flat base on the rim. Your new one has a rolled in bead and a corresponding groove around the base of the rim. That type of rim with lugs fitted is a hybrid I have never seen. On the Kelsey wheels fitted to our Canadian sourced cars, the rims with the groove rolled in them are fitted with loose lugs, not fixed lugs. The loose lug felloes have a different cross section to the fixed lug type felloes. The rims do wedge on the outside edge of the felloe, whereas the fixed lug type wedge on a wider inside land on the felloe.

Either way, I believe the rim is the cause of some of your problems. The valve stem hole should be central on the rim. The combination of rolled in groove and fixed lug may be adding to your dificulties. Does it fit properly on any of your wheels? if not, I suggest you contact the maker/vendor who sold it to you to seek clarification/rectification. Detailed photos of the felloe might help.

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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by DanTreace » Mon Jun 12, 2023 8:43 am

Scott C. wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:41 pm
The one on the top and on the right is the new one. The next one came off that wheel. The bottom and left one is from the other rear wheel.
Scott


Check out this earlier post on those New Rims. ESP. The comment from Mark. Could be same issue, one lug bolt isn’t seating, so the lug may need ‘opening’ a bit so the rim can have clearance to slide on the felloe.


https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35342



Typical Hayes rim, the lug bolt hole nearest the valve stem most times is slightly oval, so then the rim is placed with tube stem in the felloe, the bolt is entered last after the other 3, so the bolts can pass and the rim fits snug, prior to adding the bolt lug nuts.

Hayes rim oval lug hole.jpg
Last edited by DanTreace on Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Martin » Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:20 pm

Scott,
I have my front tires/rims on the car now. I think the felloes are Kelsey (flattened slightly where the Hayes fellows are notched). Getting the lug bolts thru the fellows and rims was a bit of a hassle, they didn't line up just right, but I was able to get all 8 lug nuts started then pulled the rims on a little at a time. I did not need to oval out any holes with a file. I did not have the interference problem you seem to have. On the car they have about 1/2 inch side-to-side runout but otherwise seem OK. I have not driven on them yet.
I have Hayes fellows in the rear, I'll try to put the rims on them next weekend.
Martin


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:05 pm

I have mailed Steve about the issue and have not heard back from him yet. But I think Dan "hit the nail right on the head"! The bolts do not all line up perfectly. I assumed it was mainly that the rim was not square to felloe when starting them on. Here is a picture of the lug hole next to the valve stem taken after the bolts were snugged up and the rim and then removed. The misalignment will get worse as the rim moves towards the felloe causing them to bind up.

Martin, the one that I was able to force all the way on does not wobble. I suspect that you have the same issue that I have. Have you looked at the back side of the rims to see if they are up against the felloes?
rims 5.jpg


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Allan » Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:28 pm

I believe the ovality in the lug hole nearest the valve stem is purely to aid in the fitment of the mounted rim/tyre/tube assembly. The square under the head of the rim bolts was originally upset a little so the bolts stayed in the felloe. With the car jacked up and the valve stem hole in the felloe at the top, the rim is fitted by angling the left side out away from the felloe and the right side a little over the felloe as the valve stem is inserted through the felloe. Then the skewed rim is rotated to align with the felloe. It is then that the ovality in the lug allows the rim to go on over the captive bolt. Close inspection of a good rim will show the countersink in the lug around the bolt hole is concentric with the bolt hole, the ovality created by machining off part of the countersink on the lower right side of the hole.

Today, with the bolts no longer held captive in the felloe, it is just as easy to tap the bolt nearest the valve stem back, fit the rim and then tap the bolt back into place.

Our Canadian sourced cars came with Kelsey wheels. Until 1925, they were all used loose lug rims. In 1925 we finally saw fixed lug rims. Being Kelsey, there was no foot on the lugs, so the rime bolted straight up and wedged on the wider inner land on the felloe, the lugs being proud of the outer face of the felloe. I have never seen a 23" wheel with the straight up outed edge of the felloe as shown in an earlier post. Those only came on the 21" wheels introduced on the improved 26-7 models. Any Hayes wheel I have seen has the same rolled in outer edge on the felloe as the Kelsey wheels, with a depression pressed into the rolled edge to accommodate the foot on the Hayes rims.

Alan from down under.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:46 am

Here are the lugs next to the stems on the 2 original rims. They are both elongated in and away from the stem, just like the one in Dan's picture. Neither one appears to be original. They both look to have been done by hand. I removed the bolts and layed the wheel flat on the floor and the rim still does not set flush in the felloe all the way around. I am wondering if the felloe might just be bent on this one?

rims 7.jpg
rims 6.jpg


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:02 am

whether or not done by hand, they were all but certainly done at the factory
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:16 am

I am making some progress! I tried to put that rim on one of the front felloes and had the same issue. I tried another rim on the front felloe and it went on easily. So, I took it back off and put it on that rear felloe. It went on ok. I think that felloe is tweaked a bit. Not sure, if I did that with the 5lb leather mallot trying to get it to seat, or if it was already that way. I need to put it back the axle now and check the runout. It appears that the lug to the right of the stem is out of position. I removed the nuts from the bolts on both of the rear rims and the bolts are not binding up at all. So, I think I have a lug that is out of position. I need to continue and check all 5 rims to see how many are defective. Here is a picture of the misaligned lug. It is the one on the opposite side of the stem. So I might have two different issues going on. I did receive an email back from Steve and he will replace all of the defective rims.
Attachments
rims 8.jpg


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Allan » Wed Jun 14, 2023 9:04 pm

Scott, thanks for reaching out to Steve with your problem. It gives vendors valuable feedback about their products, and a good vendor will do what can be done to fix the problem.
Re the possibly damaged felloe, it can be checked for run-out and out of round by spinning it on the car. Put a block of wood on the shop floor adjacent to the felloe and rotate the wheel by hand, checking for run-out against the block. Few well used wheels will be absolutely true, but this check will give you an indication. Then jack the car a bit and put the block under the wheel to check for out-of-round. Out of round is a more difficult problem to deal with.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:47 am

How much torque should I put on the lug nuts? If a felloe is bent a little bit, can I shim the rim lugs to make the tire run true?


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Allan » Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:06 am

The short answer is maybe yes, but you shouldn't. Fixed lug rims are designed to wedge on the inner land on the felloe. This wedging effect is what takes the "drive" from the wheel to the rim. A bent felloe will result in a very poor wedge fit. The four bolts and lugs are there to maintain the wedge. If you stack washers/shims so that the rim can run true, all the "drive" will be taken by the four bolts. The lugs should stand off the outer face of the felloe.

I would rather run with a rim firmly wedged on the felloe with some run-out than compromise that fit for the sake of a true running rim.

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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Martin » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:54 am

Scott,
FYI - Here is an except from my correspondence with Steve from Australia:
Steve,
I rec’d the last two wheels. They look nice but don’t fit very well. The lugs are not positioned very accurately, a variation as much as 5 mm between holes measuring between north and east, east to south, etc. (just using a tape measure). I may need to oval the holes in my wheels. I just wanted to let you know so you can check your process.
Martin
Hi Martin,
I took what you found on board and checked what rims we had on hand and the Felloe that I use as a jig.
The Felloe I have used for years is a new [ old stock ] Kelsey one. Made in Canada.
I took some measurements like you said and found the exact discrepancy you did. About 5 mm . probably only one hole in the felloe.
I'm assuming all felloes had the same pattern as I haven't had it bought to my attention until now.
I think Hayes may have supplied felloes to ford as well and drilled different. Just a thought.
Have you tried the rim in the 4 different positions, disregarding the valve hole position?
If you find that it fits one way, and the valve hole is in the wrong position, you can drill a new valve hole in the right spot.
I use a step drill for this .
We generally mark the valve spot when we weld on the lugs. If for some reason we took the rim off after welding, and put it back to mark the hole we may have placed it differently and only lining it up with the nearest hole.
Let me know what you find.
I don't particularly want you altering your felloes.
Do the first pair fit those wheels ?

Steve,
Thanks for your quick response. I have two slightly different fellows, but I’m not sure who manufactured them. The first pair of your rims seem to fit the fellows I tried them on well, the second pair are not as evenly spaced but I have not tried them in different positions as you suggest. I will have time this weekend to do more measuring and checking.
Martin
Steve,
I think my problem has more to do with my felloes than with your rims. They don’t go together easily but I did manage to get the rims onto the wheels this weekend. I did not drill new valve stem holes. The wheels are not on the car yet so I don’t know how round and straight they are.
Martin
Martin,
Ok, see how they run when you get them on the car.
Let me know if there’s anything I can do to help .
Regards,
Steve.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:49 am

I mounted my tires first, without test fitting the rims. I now know that I should have done that. I have 2 rims hat will not go on. I tried them on 3 different felloes so far. The first one, that I drove on with a dead blow hammer runs very true. The second one, that I struggled with has more wobble than I like, but I think that felloe could be bent. The 3rd one wobbles also. Maybe I need to reinstall the old ones and check the run out too. I never did that before taking them off. I have not tried the fourth wheel yet, as I have it parked where I cannot get to it. My time is very limited, due to my working 7 days a week.

This is the third set of rims that I have bought from Steve. The other two were 21" split rims. The only issue with those is that they do not fit in the spare tire carrier. I had to bend the two ears out where the rim rests. The same goes with these clinchers, they are too wide also. I sent him another email describing all the steps that I have taken trying to install these rims. I have not heard back from him yet. It usually takes him a few days to reply.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Sat Jun 17, 2023 1:54 am

I reinstalled an old rim on that rear wheel and it fits fine and has less run out than the new rims I am now sure that the felloe is not bent. I have an old picture that you can clearly see that the original rim seats up fine to that felloe. Whereas the new ones do not. I am to the point that I am thinking about going back to the original rims.
IMG_1093 - Copy (2).JPG
rims 3.jpg
rims 4.jpg


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Martin » Mon Jun 19, 2023 10:55 am

Over the weekend I installed my new rear wheels and rims. Everything fit fine, I have only minimal runout in the rear. I also looked more closely at the fronts. I realize now that most of the runout is due to the tires, not the wheels or rims. One front felloe/rim combo runs out 1/2-inch side to side but the tires (new Riversides) are much less round / straight than that. The car drives fine although I've only taken it up to about 25MPH. My main concern has been safety. My old wood spokes were questionable. I now feel pretty confident with my new spokes, new rims and new tires. My next project will be installing Rocky Mountain brakes.
Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:32 am

I am glad to hear that your rims fit well.

I tried to remove the one that I drove onto the felloe with a dead blow hammer. It does not want to come off. I hope I don't damage my spokes trying to get it back off!

I still have heard back again from Steve.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:05 pm

Here are pictures of 2 of my felloes. The top one is the rear one that I drove the rim onto. I was able take if and lay it on a block of wood and drive it off.
The bottom one is a front one. I can get 1 rim on with a little more wobble than I like.
rims 10.jpg
rims 11.jpg


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Martin » Wed Jun 21, 2023 1:33 pm

Scott,
Just a thought: The rear looks like it has a lot of paint on it. It may help to strip the old paint and give it a fresh thin coat.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Thu Jun 22, 2023 2:15 am

The wheels had been blasted, primed and painted when it was restored in 2010. So, the paint should not be an issue. However, I am happy to report that I now have 4 of them mounted on the truck!! The worst runout is about 1/4" at the side wall of the tire. I started with one felloe and beat all 4 of the rims on and off and back on. Then checked the runout on them. Then moved to another felloe and did the same. The fifth rim will not mount on any of the felloes. That is because the lug is out of position. I emailed Steve the good news and informed him that we only need to replace 1 rim. Thank you to everyone for helping lead me in the right direction.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Martin » Fri Jun 23, 2023 10:19 am

Congratulations!


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Thu Jun 29, 2023 1:31 am

I have put a few miles on it and the rims are working fine. I received an email back Steve and he is making me a replacement rim for the one that does not fit.

I did notice that I have some loose spokes. So, I am thinking that I need to find a set of wheels to rebuild.

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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:29 pm

I am thinking that I need to find a set of wheels to rebuild.

I suggest Hayes. Those seem to be the most plentiful rims.
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:43 pm

I agree with Steve

My dad had two Hayes and two Kelsey loose-lug wheels. It was a no brainer as to which to replace - The Kelsey's were a lighter gauge wheel and required you to have the loose lugs and to me, neither is a point of virtue...and I don't think that Kelsey-compatible rims are as plentiful, either.
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Sat Jul 01, 2023 1:44 am

OK, let's try to clarify what type of felloes and rims that I currently have. I am getting conflicting information. The 2 pictures above are of the 2 different rims that I have. I have been told that the top one is a Hayes and the bottom one is either a Hayes, or something else. I received this drawing on my other post. It clearly disagrees with what I have been told by some, but not all. If I am seeing correctly, it shows the top one to be a Ford and the bottom one to be a Hayes. I have 3 of the top one and 1 of the bottom one.

On my original rims according to both of these drawings, I have 3 Hayes rims and 1 Ford rim.


Rim_to_Fellow.jpg
667950.jpg


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jul 01, 2023 9:13 am

With FORD literature in front of you along with well researched modern cutaway drawings vs conflicting information from the Forum...for me, deciding which to believe would be a no-brainer

there were a number of manufacturers operating independent of "factory" suppliers and that can obfuscate things as well, but for me, having dealt with your exact problem (mismatching felloes) many times, there is no confusion for me as to what you're looking at

One thing you've learned for certain, that without a photograph, if you buy a "Hayes" rim from someone on the Forum, you will have no idea what is in the mail until it arrives. That in it's self is a valuable lesson.
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:13 am

What Scott said.
Faced with the variety of rims used by Ford over the course of several years, I standardize by using Hayes 2845B rims. They are instantly recognizable because of their lugs' unique design and the Hayes name stamped on them. They seem also to be the most plentiful.





IMG_4455 copy 2.JPG
IMG_0631 copy 2.JPG



Similarly, I standardize my wheels by using the notched felloes.

IMG_3737 copy 2.JPG
I believe these are Hayes felloes. But what if they're not?
I don't care. I care that the Hayes rims fit them.
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by RajoRacer » Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:32 pm

There are also 2 styles of Hayes rim lugs - one has a more pronounced straight edge - the other is as in Steve's photo - I'll attempt to get a comparison photo later.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Sat Jul 01, 2023 3:30 pm

Thanks for all the input. I think Scott has hit the nail right on the head. I am just looking for clarification on the felloes. Maybe Hayes did make 2 types, I do not know. However, according to the drawing, that we all believe to be correct, Steve's felloe appears to be a Ford. I realize too, that the Fords were designed to interchange with the Hayes. Maybe that is why the Ford's have that notch? As I start searching for replacements, I would like to be well informed on what I am looking at. In the end, after rebuilding them, I would like to end up with a matching set of felloes. Maybe even a set of both?

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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jul 01, 2023 4:40 pm

Are they Ford, or Hayes? It doesn't matter whether the felloes are really Ford, Hayes, Kleenex, or Sal Hepatica, as long as the rims fit them. :D
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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Allan » Sat Jul 01, 2023 9:59 pm

Scott, not all of us agree that the drawings are correct, I for one. [and possibly the only one] None show any difference in the width of the inner rolled lands. Our Kelsey loose lug rims are like the second Kelsey drawing. Both the rolled edges are the same width. Rims to fit these wedge on the outer rolled-in edge, and do not engage on the inner edge.
Fixed lug rims, which we did not get until 1925, are made to wedge on a wider inner rolled edge. They do not engage on the outer edge, especially that straight up edge on that type of felloe.
I agree with Steve, to a point. If they fit, they fit, no mater what the combination. However it is how they fit that is important. Whatever the combination is, the rim should wedge on one of the felloe lands. The wheel bolts/lugs are there to maintain that wedge effect If the fit you have relies on just the four bolts/lugs to keep the rim tight on the felloe, it is not a combination that fits well.
You have found that re-working sections of one of your inner edges has improved the fit of the rim on that wheel. With the rim wedged on the reworked land, you have achieved the correct fit.

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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott C. » Sat Jul 01, 2023 11:28 pm

Looking at that drawing, I cannot tell the difference between the Hayes 2845B and the Ford 2845D. The same goes with the Ford 2845B and the Ford 2845C. So, will a fixed lug rim fit a loose lug felloe? Plus the Kelsey's appear to be 2 piece felloes.

The one felloe that I am thinking is a Hayes, has the tube for the valve stem to pass through. The ones that I am thinking are Ford only have a hole for the valve stem.


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Re: tube question 30x3-1/2 demountables

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jul 01, 2023 11:44 pm

You do not see that one has a lug on it and the other has no lug?? If Martyn's drawings are confusing you, just look at the FORD drawing

In reality, putting a rim with lugs on a felloe which takes loose lugs creates a problem which is not obvious. The loose lug felloes frequently are not the same diameter as felloes for lugged rims. They were not made interchangeable and are not compatible. What happens when you mount a lugged rim on a loose-lug felloe is that you can often see a distinct visible gap between the OD of the felloe and the ID of the rim. You end up "hanging" by the bolts and since the rim is not supported fully by the felloe, the rim flexes giving a lumpy ride and the bolts work sufficiently against the felloes that somewhat significant cracks can develop.

As for the "tube" that can be found with a short search to be a firestone version which took a rim that had a corresponding protrusion that fit into the tube/cup. That general cross-section of felloes can be found as often with as without those cups. Firestone/with and FORD/without
This really isn't that difficult of a subject to get right. I'm constantly amazed when threads like these go over 3-4 answers. The question is asked- the question is answered; the ford documentation is plentiful, and the factory-listed compatibilities are defined. Regarding all of the other many wheel manufacturers and compatibility, that is another thing entirely.

BTW - those drawings by Martyn aren't "two-piece felloes" - you are looking at a cross section through the felloe where there is a stamped dimple raised to act as a "stop" for the lug
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