Catastrophic Failure

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RajoRacer
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Catastrophic Failure

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:35 am

Assisting a friend who joined "The Club" last fall during a NWVS Endurance run - seems a coolant leak (Z head in question) into #3 cylinder caused a "tube-lock" which bent the rod, broke the crankshaft at #3 then proceeded to take the rear main bearing web out of the block !!! I installed this "rebuilt" short block into this speedster 5 years ago and he had finished multiple speedster events with the car - it was a strong runner. Other than the internal damage, the failure damaged the Bendix drive beyond repair, buggered a few of the starter ring gear teeth, nicked the c.c. & lower cover in a couple spots and slightly dinged 2 of the oil slingers (Dan McE.'s - the best ones !) when the transmission bitch-slapped the pan !
Attachments
rear of block.JPG
catasrophic failure.JPG
catasrophic failure 2.JPG
#3 crank throw.JPG
#3 rod bent.JPG


Jerry VanOoteghem
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:13 am

What is meant by "tube lock"? I have heard of, (and sadly experienced a "hydro-lock". Bye bye Ford Explorer engine). If that's what it was, it's hard to believe it could instantly dump in enough coolant, while the engine was running, to lock it up.


Norman Kling
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:23 am

Very sad :( That engine is good for an anchor for a buoy of very small boat. After so much money and work had been done and then lost in one bang. That leak must have come on very quickly while the engine was running because a slow leak would have caused it to lock while attempting to start and the engine wouldn't start, but if it were flooded with water while running the piston would have been coming up on compression very rapidly. Since water does not compress, it broke the weakest thing in the engine causing a chain reaction. Even the momentum of the car moving would have added to the pressure after the engine stopped and so it broke out the block and the crank. I have never seen one so severely damaged.
Norm

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by JTT3 » Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:44 am

Steve a little JB weld an it should be fine, joking. Biggest fear early car wise is that happening with an open valve engine. The 3rd main from 09-12 only had that one reinforcement rib there instead of 2, 1913 forward. Having had experience with a crack with a 12 block at the 3rd main was bad enough though it did not destroy everything. I heard something change and immediately shut the engine off. The crack started on the passenger side and ran in a crescent just over the 3rd main at the boss that the main bolts enter and down to the other side just in front of the last pan bolt hole on the block. Shortly after that, while at Chickasha swapmeet, I bought a fake open valve block from Wally Sonowski to use on an 11 touring and store its original engine. Never got around to doing that but it did change my thoughts on driving the early stuff frequently.
Last edited by JTT3 on Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RajoRacer
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:17 pm

"Tube-lock" same as hydraulic lock. There was no indication of a head gasket failure but it appeared coolant had been present in #3 for some time ?


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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:54 pm

From here, I'd guess your crank or block failed first. A Coolant leak big enough to lock the engine down when running at high RPM would let the water out as fast as it let it in, thus avoiding hydro-lock.

It might be possible for a coolant leak to lead to a piston siezing, with subsequent damage, but I'd think the engine would misfire badly enough to alert the driver to trouble.

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Rich Eagle
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Rich Eagle » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:58 pm

Thanks for the report and photos Steve.
It's something I've' never seen and never want to have happen, but good to know about.
SHEEESH!!!
Rich
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by mtntee20 » Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:25 pm

The correct term is: "Two Blocked". In the old days, hoisting cranes had two sheave blocks for hoisting. One had a hook or ring on the bottom. The other was permanently fixed or hung from the point/tip of the crane boom. When the operator was not paying attention, the machinery would pull in the rope (wire or fiber) until the two blocks hit each other. The usual damage was a broken hoist line and dropped load. Damage to the sheaves on one or both blocks was very likely.

The cranes of today have a weight hanging from the point of the boom so as when the block or hook gets too close to the point, it raises the weight and trips a switch to stop hoisting.

The term use was expanded to include any two items, when they contact each other, serious damage occurs.

In this case, it would be a hydraulic lock OR an attempt to compress a non-compressible liquid.

Heart breaking to see the extent of the damage, not counting the damage NOT seen yet.

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Craig Leach
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Craig Leach » Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:33 pm

Hi Steve,
Did I miss something was this engine running and got enough water in # 3 cyl. to Hydro-lock it or did this happen on start up? Or did the damage
to the ring gear & bendix throw me off?
Craig.


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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:46 pm

I'm expecting that damage to someone's wallet will be extensive but not yet fully determined
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by kmatt2 » Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:50 pm

Hydro lock happens on engine startup, after a shutoff engine leaking coolant, or as in the case of a modern race car, leaks fuel into the cylinder. The pressure in the cylinder on restarting the engine causes a bent rod or casting failure and worse damage. For this to happen in a running T engine, with its large combustion chambers, it would require a total failure in the head due to excessive milling to increase compression resulting in a weaken chamber. My guess is that the T crank broke first and the other damage happened as the engine continued to turn in some cylinders and not turn in others, bending the number three rod. In any case your T engine is now a sad story and a candidate for shop art.


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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Allan » Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:12 pm

I agree with Kevin's diagnosis. When this damage happens, I always look at the third main bearing web in the block. As mentioned in a previous post, the land on which the third main bearing bolt heads rest is a perfect stress riser from which cracks can and do originate, especially on early blocks.When that happens, the crack surfaces tend to "work" on each other, polishing them, before the final clean break. Then the broken rear main web results in a broken crankshaft.
From the photos, the break on the web appears clean and fresh for its entire length, which suggests in this case that the crankshaft broke first, taking out the main bearing web after it let go. An expensive rebuild either way.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Ed Baudoux » Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:38 pm

It may be the camera angle, but the picture of the crankshaft looks like an old, dirty crack. The freshly broken section is clean.
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:28 pm

It was running down the road when it broke on my friend - my initial diagnosis seems incorrect in the series of events - no matter - worse one I've had in my shop for repair !!!


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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by John Codman » Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:19 am

I did read the above post, but prior to that post I too felt that it was a failed part and not hydro-lock.


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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:40 am

That thaing's broke, Merle. You gonna hafta git some Smooth-On and friction tape and patch it up.

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by George Mills » Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:30 pm

Thats a sad finding...

I'm not smart enough to talk about that thing y'all mention as 'hydro-lock', Yeah I get that you are saying a piston sucks coolant, can't compress the volume as coolant doesn't compress, and with no compression something has to give in a micro second.

But I have spent a good part of a career being the guy that works from the other end to figure out a why.

While I'll be the first to admit that pictures don't show everything here's my initial view based on the limited pics...the crank had a big existing crack in it up in the thro' and was a ticking time bomb. Look at the cleave, is it all sugary soft gray? A shiny mark means it rubbed AFTER failure, a dark mark means it has been soaking oil for a while, a long while. That picture seems to show a dark spot before the first big contour mark (beech mark)? Then, look at the subsequent contour marks. how big a jump did each take? Each jump in the contour marks is the mode of failure progressing. Generally speaking from lots of donated broken crank club exhibits, an average T crank shaft can survive normal operation with small jumps from time to time while actually broken 1/3 of the way thru and only then do the contour lines progress as rapid failure.

The block, the poor block? Same sugary texture applies. That all looks like dull gray sugar...but the OP can look and see if the area by the main bolt down is something else and dirty, or there is a series of ice pick dimples somewhere (indicative of small blow holes on cooling. Shiny and a bit of a polished look means the two separate block pieces were bouncing on each other before letting go.

As to the rod? Yeah, its bent...when it bent will always be open to discussion but leans toward the initial visual diagnosis as a bent rod in the plane shown is NOT indicative of a rotational failure.

(just an old guy, scrolling through his memory)

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