MTFCA Forum

I just completed my first tour today using Evans Waterless Coolant in the radiator of my 1913 Touring T. It was an 80 plus degree day here in Indiana and we traveled well over 60 miles. The Moto Meter gauge never rose above the bottom of the circle. I believe this is due to several factors. First the boiling point of the Evans coolant is 375 degrees. Second the coolant doesn't expand with heat. The radiator fluid level is still at the top of the tank, unlike traditional coolants which expand and flow out the overflow tube. This means more coolant in the radiator and no steam or boiling coolant. I am very pleased with this product! https://www.evanscoolant.com/

FYI, it took exactly 3 gallons to fill my system.

It must expand or else it would not circulate in a thermosyphon ssytem. Are you running a water pump?

Rod wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 22, 2023 6:20 pm

I just completed my first tour today using Evans Waterless Coolant in the radiator of my 1913 Touring T. It was an 80 plus degree day here in Indiana and we traveled well over 60 miles. The Moto Meter gauge never rose above the bottom of the circle. I believe this is due to several factors. First the boiling point of the Evans coolant is 375 degrees. Second the coolant doesn't expand with heat. The radiator fluid level is still at the top of the tank, unlike traditional coolants which expand and flow out the overflow tube. This means more coolant in the radiator and no steam or boiling coolant. I am very pleased with this product! https://www.evanscoolant.com/

FYI, it took exactly 3 gallons to fill my system.

They don't recommend it unless the engine has a water pump https://www.evanscoolant.com/how-it-works/forum/

--

Evans waterless coolant has a specific heat of .68 compared to water
50/50 ethylene glycol has a specific heat of .82 compared to water

It's good that your car runs cool with this product, as it is abysmal in it's ability to exchange heat - it's sole virtue being that short of incinerating it, it does not boil. With a pressurized system, there are some benefits, but it's ability to work well in a T is highly dependent on a very good radiator - even the manufacturer states that.

Studies show that in some engines, they will run 115-140F hotter (at the cylinder heads) with Evans products - yay. Evans claims that heat does NOT go up that much but overall the system (even pressurized) will run hotter than 50/50 coolant...not a surprise given the lower specific heat value - double yay.

you mention that it won't expand and go out the overflow tube like water or coolant - I very much suspect that you like to run your radiator too full and the coolant seeks its own level where Evans won't expand, thus won't go out the overflow tube (which is not overheating). I was on a tour once where an elderly gentleman was CONSTANTLY adding water (it was a brutally hot tour in MN). I suggested that he QUIT adding water and just monitor its level...after it settled to the middle of "FORD" he never added another drop...he told me that was news to him after 30 years of ownership of the car, so it's never too late to learn

in all honestly, though, if I had spent $240 on coolant, I'd have to extol its virtues even if the engine fused into a lump of smoldering metal and then I'd be inclined to blame the oil

if you're a satisfied customer, that's great - all others should use extreme caution particularly if you don't have a motometer because if you overheat, it won't boil, won't steam, it won't warn you, and you will never know you have trouble until the engine fuses solid.

Rod .... Congratulations on your experience with Evans waterless coolant. I've used Evans for a little over 20 years and I am satisfied. The only drawback I found is that if the hose connections are not sealed and clamped you will have leakage. ....... And I do not have a water pump .Enjoy many more miles !

I’ve seen some info on this on tv. I didn’t think it was worthwhile for a T due to the cost. I’m glad you had a nice tour but at 80 degrees you shouldn’t be running hot anyway. Look forward to hear how it does on a hot day.


Andy

Hi Rod,
First I will preface my comment with I'm too cheap to spend that much for coolant! Then I have a reputation for being so thrifty that I squeek
when I walk The only experience I have with Evans coolant is one of the guys I worked with tried it in his 1969 427 cu.in. Camero, He did
the whole flush & fill as dirrected just to come out in the morning to go to the car show to find several hundred dollars of coolant on the garage
floor that stained the new floor coating. So rent a Pods to move everything into pressure wash the floor & recoat, move it back in total cost
about 1.5K and a ton of work. I'm not poo pooing the product I'm just saying that there needs to be extra percausions when useing it, other than
the need for a W.P. just My $.02.
Craig.

You could commission a solid gold radiator for your car, and run straight Cutty Sark or 200-year old wine for coolant... if you can afford it.... but why?

There is no good reason to use Evans coolant in a Model T, and a number of good reasons not to.

My T will run for miles on end with only plain tap water in the radiator at 40+ MPH in 105 F heat with no overheating or coolant loss.

I normally use a 50/50 mix of "green" antifreeze and water, which provides a slightly higher boiling point and good protection against corrosion along with some other advantages.

(Berg radiator)

It was an 80 plus degree day...

When I am up north and hear people gripe about 85º being hot, it makes me smile.
So an expensive coolant has a higher boiling point than 50/50 does. So what? A Model T cooling system in good condition will stay well below the boiling point. I believe I have read that it's 180º - 200º. In my book 375º is high-priced overkill.

By the way, the Evans blurb's allegation that the thermosyphon system depends on boiling is bogus. The whole point of the system is to not boil.

If the coolant has a higher " boiling point" the engine will not run cooler, in fact, the engine runs hotter! So one should consider having an accurate temperature gauge and an engine oil designed for higher performance.
With this in mind, replacing the coolant to stop the radiator acting like a geyser, itself an early warning system, is to risk an engine seizure, a far more costly option! I, for one, will be sticking with water and antifreeze.

In my case, my car is 98 years old, and so is its radiator. Last year's MTFCI Int'l. Tour had days in the high 90's. Never boiled once.

Using coolant with a very high boiling point, and not having your car boil, does not mean that it's running cooler. The indication on your motometer* only means the COOLANT is running at a lower temperature, not necessarily the engine itself, escpecially in areas of high heat concentration, such as near the valve seats. Evans' decreased ability to absorb heat energy, (compared to water/antifreeze), means that the coolant itself will likley run cooler, while leaving the "heat" in the engine.

*The motometer indicates coolant temperature, NOT engine temperature.

I suggest you use a "heat gun" to investigate how hot your engine is actually running.

You may find that you have a very hot engine and a very cool radiator.

A motometer will not function correctly unless used with water or a water-based coolant mixture.

A thermosyphon system will not function correctly with a coolant that does not expand.

Model Ts do not depend on boiling water, or boiling anything, to circulate coolant. They depend on thermal expansion of the coolant.


A coolant with an extremely high boiling point will allow a Model T engine to get much hotter than normal without overt symptoms of overheating. That's not a good thing.

Cost of 3 gallons of clean water in your locality?

Cost of 1.5 gallons of a good commercial ethylene glycol antifreeze in your locality?

How difficult is it to pour water or anti-freeze/coolant into a Model T Ford, if needed?

I see that anti-rust/waterpump lubricant products are still available, some carrying long-recognized brand names. These products, used as directed, would obviate any necessity of using antifreeze in localities where freezing weather is not encountered.
Use of such products might be an economical choice for Floridians and others not subjected to the fury of Global Cooling.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:45 am

A thermosyphon system will not function correctly with a coolant that does not expand.

Model Ts do not depend on boiling water, or boiling anything, to circulate coolant. They depend on thermal expansion of the coolant.

More specifically, thermosyphon depends upon variation in the density of the coolant, with less dense, (i.e. hotter), coolant rising to the top of the radiator, and more dense, (i.e. cooler), coolant dropping to the bottom of the radiator. Lack of coolant expansion suggests little to no change in density and therefore little to no thermosyphon. So, why does the OP see cooler motometer temps? Because the coolant is likley staying in the radiator longer, while the coolant in the engine is secretely getting very hot, (due to its very high boiling point which does not display the typical overheat symptoms).
The OP states in another forum thread that this is a "brand new engine"... Not a great way to break in a new engine. I hope he hasn't spent $250 to ruin a new motor.

As Pat and others state, it has nothing ot do with boiling.

A thorough investigation might reveal that some extended-life modern coolants are not designed for use in non-pressurized, vented systems such as are found on Model T Fords and other early cars.

Vented systems allow atmospheric oxygen to mix with the coolant.

Closed, pressurized systems do not.

Old engines are also more likely to have minor combustion gas leaks into the coolant than are modern design engines, and old systems are more likley to experince coolant loss for any of several reasons than are modern systems.

Those are factors that argue against the use of ultra-expensive "permanent" coolant products in early cars, including particularly Model T Fords.

Your money; your car; your choice.

I believe that you are correct, Jerry. It's basic physics. I've seen no evidence that Model Ts are exempt, no matter how much the owner spends on coolant/antifreeze products.

One good use for Evans coolant might be in a specially prepared, ultra high fuel mileage engine.

Put it in your eco-bug and run the engine at 335 F.... 12:1 compression... use direct injection and EGR to control detonation... need more power? Add a supercharger and run nitromethane. When you come to an EV charging station, plug your alternator into the Grid and make them PAY YOU for the juice!

I agree with both Txgoat and Steve Jelf - there is no reason to go to some exotic coolant in a model T (or any other car with a properly working cooling system). My '27 with a good Berg's radiator runs at about 175Deg F max at the radiator top tank, and about 116 at the bottom. For most of this month it has been about 95 F here in SW Florida and the only reason I'm not out driving the T, is that it's too damn hot to do the cleaning and lubing prior to driving it.
I also agree with those who say that Evan's statement that the coolant has to boil (in a thermosyphon system) in order for the system to work, is not only wrong - it's stupid. (How do you really feel, John?)

How difficult is it to pour water or anti-freeze/coolant into a Model T Ford, if needed?

In one of the FB Model T groups one participant said he buys ready-mixed antifreeze because mixing 50/50 is too complicated.

I appreciate all of the input regarding Waterless Coolant.
Upon your suggestion, I ran the car for several hours today. Here is what I found.

280° front cylinder
300° rear cylinder
280° head
280° top of radiator
200° oil pan
100° bottom of radiator and lower pipe

These temps are with the timer set in the middle of the quadrant running on Mag. Moto meter shows at the bottom of the circle.
If I fully advance the timer, the Moto meter shoots to the top of the scale.

I also discovered that the Evans coolant does expand with heat. The fluid settled at about 1" below the top of the radiator.

One needs to consider the principles used in the design of an existing system before applying new technology to it.
--
In the case of a Model T engine cooling there are several considerations of how things were done in that time:
-What is the suggested operating temperature range of the engine & how was it measured?
-What "system" was used maintain this operating temperature range?

The popular method of measuring engine operating temperature range back then was with a Motometer. But Motometer's did not measure engine or water temperature directly since their temperature stem never was lower than the top of the radiator tank. So it basically it was measuring water vapor temperature. Having said that, there are some references indication that the desired range was between 190-220 °F. Anything over 220°F was boil over. Again this is an inference that the engine was okay when the measurement was within the temperature range. So what advantage is there to have a coolant that prevents boil over past 250°F? And is a steaming radiator a warning sign of a potential failure and time to pull over.

The "system" used in the Model T engine was thermosiphoning. Thermosiphoning relies on the coolant circulation being driven by coolant in the water jacket becoming hotter and hence less dense then the coolant in the radiator. So as the less dense coolant (vapor too) rises the cooler coolant in the radiator and rest of the system seeks to level itself continuously.

Can flow occur without the coolant becoming less dense (expanding) in the system? Can it be assumed that if the coolant is above the flow level the principal of hot air rising and cool air falling cause flow? Secondly, if such coolant is below the flow level can flow occur at all. That is the question

How many on the Forum would be comfortable with 280F coolant coming out of the head ?

I sure would not be.

With Evans having 1/3 less heat-exchange ability than the next best coolant, I suppose I am not surprised

It seems you have a hot engine and a cool radiator.
If you want to run Evans in a Model T, you'd do well to add a water pump, and you need a good radiator, no matter what coolant you use.

Your cylinder head water outlet temperature ought to be no higher than about 200F.

Ideally, the cylinder head temperature would be very close to equal from front to back.

Your crankcase temperature is probably OK, although I'd think it's on the high side for a T under any but extreme conditions.

100F at the lower radiator outlet after running several miles is too low. It indicates poor circulation.

If you drove your car up a long grade in 100F temperatures, your engine would probably get quite a bit hotter than the figures you obtained, regardless of whether it boiled over or not.

Remember that the objective of a cooling system is to cool the engine. It is possible to overcool and engine, and to undercool an engine.

For the radiator to serve its purpose, coolant must circulate from the engine through the radiator at a sufficient rate to allow the radiator to dissipate enough heat to keep the engine within its designed operating range, throughout its operating range.

Plain water does an excellent job of that in the Model T system, provided that the radiator is in good condition.

Plain water and ethylene glycol based coolant products, used as directed, do a very good job of cooling the engine and preventing corrosion in the Model T.

A radiator that is clogged or otherwise compromised must be repaired or replaced for the cooling system to do its job, regardless of what coolant is used.

It's also important to adjust the ignition timing and fuel mixture to suit operating conditions of the moment in order to avoid overheating, including overheating of exhaust valves under load, which may not necessarily cause boilover, but is nonetheless destructive.

280 degrees! Wow!

A new radiator is a lot cheaper than another engine rebuild.

I believe switching to the new coolant is fixing a symptom and not the problem and it will eventually cause a new problem.

Rod

this whole thing has not set right with me and rereading everything, I now realize that at one point your motometer was registering what I would call "nominally warm" and then several posts later, you say that the top of the radiator/head are 280F...I assume with an IR thermometer?

those two things are mutually exclusive - they can't be screaming hot by one measurement method and just warm by another method. Something is off, and not measuring correctly. My first suspicion would be the 280 measuring device (Infra red devices can yield wildly incorrect results when measuring off of reflective surfaces)

I'd be inclined to find out which measuring device is correct and which is not, and work from there.

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:33 pm

How many on the Forum would be comfortable with 280F coolant coming out of the head ?

I sure would not be.

With Evans having 1/3 less heat-exchange ability than the next best coolant, I suppose I am not surprised

Me neither! Imagine how hot it must be getting at the "hot spots" near the valve seats, (where you can't easily measure the temps)!

A 180 degree drop across the radiator indicates low flow. I believe change of about 50 degrees would be about normal, with maybe 200 degrees entering the rad.

A motometer bulb is not submerged in coolant, it is getting coolant splash, coolant vapor, and steam. If the coolant is not becoming vapor or steam I dont think it can get a good temp reading.

I've used Evans in my 1930 Model A with no problems for over a year now. In the T I use 50/50 anti freeze.

I checked the top water temp with a meat thermometer and the readings are correct. I'm at 280 plus.

Seeing as it takes 6 months to get a new radiator, I do have a new 1910 radiator that I won't be using anytime soon. I think I will drain the system and see if that radiator will work while I wait for a new one from Brass Works.

The Moto Meter is apparently giving me incorrect readings with the Evans Coolant.

Thanks for all of your advice.

Rod

get on the "radiator list" SOON!!

I'm on month 7 and still waiting

I have seen some obviously implausible temperature readings when using an IR temperature device on things like clean galvanized metal air conditioning ducts and some other surfaces.

But for the most part, mine seems to work well.

I don't think motometers were ever represented as being highly accurate devices.

They do provide some guidance, if working properly and used as designed.

Rod wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 23, 2023 3:57 pm

I checked the top water temp with a meat thermometer and the readings are correct. I'm at 280 plus.

Seeing as it takes 6 months to get a new radiator, I do have a new 1910 radiator that I won't be using anytime soon. I think I will drain the system and see if that radiator will work while I wait for a new one from Brass Works.

The Moto Meter is apparently giving me incorrect readings with the Evans Coolant.

Thanks for all of your advice.

Rod,

You've stated elsewhere that this is a newly rebuilt engine. It's not uncommon for them to run hot. Maybe, in the miles that you've put on it already, it's been broken in some. Why not try just using plain water and giving it another try? You may find that it's running cooler now. In the case of my '21 Roadster, it took several short idle times and sevaral short trips at low speed to get it running cool. (And that was with a newly recored radiator)

I'd think a Model A with a good radiator could get by using the Evans product, since the Model A does have a sort of water pump.

A person still might have issues if the engine was worked hard in hot weather or at high altitude.

That said, Model A water pumps are low capacity, leak prone devices, and Model As have a non-pressurized cooling system which is vented to the atmosphere. The Model A engine, like the T, was not designed to be run over about 180 to 190F at the coolant outlet.

Having a high-mounted water pump with a rag seal, Model As are prone to sucking air into the coolant at the water pump shaft at higher engine speeds, causing aeration and foaming of the coolant, which will severely degrade the effectiveness of any coolant. Any leakage or aeration-driven overflow of the system using Evans would be quite expensive.
Clean water is fairly abundant and cheap in this part of the world, and it is an excellent coolant for antique Ford cars. When fortified with glycol-based coolant products, it is the best available all-season coolant for these and similar cars, and also the most economical.

And yet another example of T owners willing to experiment on their cars. This stuff is expensive and runs a lot hotter which can’t be good for the engine but as usual those that have pulled that folded piece of dead cow out of their back pocket and went for the big $ will defend it to the death. Of their motor usually.

I have mentioned this before, once on the old Forum Format, and maybe on the newer forum.

Our 1922 Coupe has always been cooled since the 1960s by using 100 % Ethylene Glycol (EG) (the Green Stuff)-- I would guess that that qualify as "Waterless Coolant."

From its introduction to aviation in the 1940s, it was found to have an advantage over water as a coolant, The introduction of ethylene glycol coolant, which with its higher boiling point (and higher coolant temperature) allowed a smaller radiator and thus a lower profile on certain aircraft.

Granted in a classified study from 1946, it was found that over all water was a better coolant. (https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA801100.pdf)

From the information supplied by manufactures, 100% EG boils at 386degrees F, or 197 Degrees C. And freezes at 9 degrees F Or -12.8 degrees C. Using water as a base freezes at 32 degree F and boils at 212 degrees F..

As for mixing EG as conventional wisdom states, at 50/50 freezes at -34.2 degrees F and Boils at 225 degrees F.

So, we have never had boiling or over heating issues. Every two years or so, maybe longer the stuff is drained, and the system is flushed with water.

Makers of ethylene glycol antifreeze recommend a 50/50 mix with clean water under all but very extreme circumstances. I see no reason to go against their long-standing recommendation.

In the case of an aircraft, I would follow the maker's advice on coolant.

Charlie B in N.J. wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:06 pm

And yet another example of T owners willing to experiment on their cars. This stuff is expensive and runs a lot hotter which can’t be good for the engine but as usual those that have pulled that folded piece of dead cow out of their back pocket and went for the big $ will defend it to the death. Of their motor usually.

Rod has been very receptive and thankful with regard to the advice given here. He does not seem to be defending anything "to the death".

With a radiator in my 1915 that boiled easily, I was faced with a choice: buy a new one or get the old one recored. I went with the recore because it let me keep the original appearance (yes, there is a difference), did not require a wait time of several months, and saved me a few hundred bucks. That was ten years ago. I do not regret the choice. The radiator still works as new. I have to confess that there have been a few tank leaks. One of them was rather dramatic because it happened on the road during a trip. But it was an easy fix, as the others have been. Would I go with a recore again? You bet.


Drama on the road.



You just have to find somebody old enough to know how.

My father ordered a case of "Evans Waterless Coolant for Air-Cooled Engines" for his non-T and, a week later, a box of empty jugs showed-up on the front stoop.

I would not contemplate using anything which would allow a T motor to run at higher temperatures, especially a new motor. It is asking for piston seizing, especially with aluminium pistons.

Boiling is not good, but a T will forgive same as long as there is still water in the system. Running at even higher temperatures with no boiling is not really a cure for the problem.

Allan from down under.

My two cents on the IR thermometers. I place a piece of painters tape wherever I need to take the temperature. This started when I was getting mixed readings on a brass radiator. By using tape at each point you want to check the reflectivity remains constant allowing for meaningful comparison.

Andy

I run 50/50 coolant or just water. My car runs at a constant 150 degrees with a water pump. I broke a belt and it ran hot , would cool in high gear. The only belt I had to make a temporary repair bypassed the water pump and kept the cooling level in the circle, but pretty warm on hills. With a new belt including the water pump, I was back to no issues. I guess they work on some applications.

150 F is overcooled.

Wow,!!.,. After 25 years of producing Evans waterless coolant with all the negativity in these comments I am really surprised that Evans is still in business. As long as the coolant is in liquid form and in complete contact with the water passages in the engine, it will do its job to take the heat away from the engine block. Once bubbles are formed from boiling, the bubbles decrease the coolant liquid contact with the metal, therefore it cannot cool the engine block metal as well as having complete liquid contact. In my experience with Evans, my motor meter has shown temperatures about 1/5 to 1/4 it's way up on the thermometer and has never reached the bottom of the circle. Of course a few minutes after the engine has been shut down and no air being forced through the radiator by the fan coolant temperatures will rise slightly. Back in the day when I used water as coolant observation was with sound of coolant boiling in the engine for a few minutes after a hot days ride..... This was never observed using Evans since the coolant was still liquid and in full contact with the engine block metal. Clean engine block water passages are very important as well as fin
contact with tubes in the radiator to give good heat transfer.

Rod, I would be extremely uncomfortable with those temperature readings. Regardless of whether it is boiling or not the T was not designed to run at anything close to those temperatures. What I would do is to drain the coolant that you have in the engine now and refill the engine with clean water. I would then run the engine until it is fully warmed up and take the temperatures again. If they are lower I would get rid of the Evans coolant permanently. If they are not I would test the thermometer that you are using against a known, accurate thermometer. I also do not believe a 180 degree difference in temperature between the top and bottom of the radiator; a T radiator can't get rid of that much heat. I'm wondering if you have a plugged up radiator?

Pat, it varied between 150 and 180 on my Moto meter which might not be completely accurate. The engine feels warm/hot but not over heated. Without the water pump in high gear it is pretty much the same

The manufacturer of Evans does not heartily recommend it for Model Ts.

I'm sure it has its uses, but it is not well-suited for use in a Model T.
I would not use it in any application with a rag seal water pump and an atmospheric, non-pressurized cooling system such as a Model A Ford.

I would not use it in any thermosyphon cooled application.

As stated:
Our 1922 Coupe has always been cooled since the 1960s by using 100 % Ethylene Glycol (EG) (the Green Stuff)-- I would guess that that qualify as "Water-less Coolant."

Reviewing the MSDS sheets for "Evans Water-less Coolant" this information was presented the product is for keeping an engine cool. The sheet contains no information on the freezing point of the product. Granted some place there is this information, but not on the MSDS data sheet. Is the main purpose of the Water-less coolant to keep an engine from overheating and "running" cool?

The main ingredient of the water-less coolant is (Mono)Ethylene Glycol by volume between 74 to 90 %. with additives. The freezing point not determined, but has a boiling point of 190.6 degrees C, or 375 degrees F.

As for using straight Ethylene Glycol (the Green Stuff), from the information supplied by manufactures, 100% EG boils at 386 degrees F, or 197 Degrees C. And freezes at 9 degrees F Or -12.8 degrees C. Using water as a base freezes at 32 degree F and boils at 212 degrees F..

As for mixing EG as conventional wisdom states, at 50/50 freezes at -34.2 degrees F and Boils at 225 degrees F.

As long as the car is kept in a garage, and the temperature does not drop below 9 degrees F, there should be not cracked block from freezing.

Advice here on the Forum:

As long as the coolant is in liquid form and in complete contact with the water passages in the engine, it will do its job to take the heat away from the engine block

yes, at about 66% the efficiency of water or 80% of the efficiency of 50/50. Science is a tough mother.

From a customer to the Manufacturer:

Can this product be used on a model T with a gravity circulation?

Reply from the Manufacturer:

We normally do not suggest using Evans Waterless Coolant in this application, although we have had success in the past. This success depends A LOT on the condition of the radiator and the actual temperature range

Advice on the Forum:

I've used Evans for a little over 20 years and I am satisfied

so you've successfully used a product that is not advised by the manufacturer for that application; at $50 per gallon costs 4 or 5 times the price for a typical coolant; have chosen a coolant with the worst possible specific heat value on the market, but based on your fortunate (but not typical) experience, you highly recommend its use.

Questions I would ask if I were contemplating its use:
as a coolant, does it cool well in a non-pumped, non-pressurized system? No, based on its specific heat, it is the least efficient coolant available on the market
as a coolant, is it a good dollar value? No, it is the most expensive product on the market
if there is a failure in the cooling system, will there be any indication of trouble from the coolant before the engine seizes? No, since the coolant does not boil until 375F, by the time trouble will show at the radiator, if it ever shows at the radiator, the engine will have already been seriously damaged or ruined

It is not hard to find advice on the Forum.

The difficult part is deciding which advice is safe to follow.

RE: 1922 coupe and 100% tradtional antifreeze (the "green stuff'")

You should never have more than a 70% to 30% antifreeze to water ratio in a cooling system. Anything greater than 70% and the freezing point goes up.

Also,100% Antifreeze has a substantially lower heat-transfer capability than water.

If you are using anti-freeze, the aim should be to keep the ratio of antifreeze to water as low as possible in order to keep the heat-transfer capability of the coolant as high as possible.

Therefore, if you are using antifreeze, you should refer to an antifreeze chart and use the ratio required for your climate. For example, if you can get by with a 40/60 antifreeze to water ratio, that is what you should use. If 30/70 will work in your climate, that is even better.

Using antifreeze is a compromise: heat-transfer capability is lowered in order to receive the benefits of freeze and corrosion protection.

PS: some early car enthusiasts here in Minnesota run 100% water during the touring season. For winter storage, they drain the system and fill it with 50/50. They do this for at least two reasons: 100% water is a superior coolant to an antifreeze mixture and antifreeze stains brass.

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 23, 2023 11:56 am

How difficult is it to pour water or anti-freeze/coolant into a Model T Ford, if needed?

In one of the FB Model T groups one participant said he buys ready-mixed antifreeze because mixing 50/50 is too complicated.

I wonder who drives his T for him.

Or ties his shoes every mourning?

——————————————————————————————————————

If you're dead set against using clean water, or clean water and regular commercial anti-freeze/coolant, I suppose you could use DOT 5 brake fluid for coolant in your Model T. It's expensive, and not well-suited for the application. ATF might be another (marginally workable) option.

Or you could commission a custom block and head, and use air for a coolant.

I'd think a dead horse, no matter how well-beaten, would be altogether unsuited to the purpose, and probably against at least some local ordinances.

Well the horse was dead in 1904. The company offered a "water-less cooled engine." But it didn't sell well.

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3 ... 1380300717

No water = No rust.

Oxygen causes rust.

Iron and steel are quite capable of rusting even where water is totally absent.


NEGLECT causes rust issues in automotive cooling systems, just as sludged crankcases result from neglect, not from oil.

I thought about starting another thread, but I will continue this one instead.

I drained the Waterless Coolant yesterday and filled the radiator with 5% Distilled Vinegar. Let it sit for several hours and then ran the engine for over an hour with the vinegar in it.
Temps with 5% Vinegar:
254° #4 cylinder
236° #1 cylinder
225° Head
219° Top of Radiator
160° Bottom of Radiator
204° Oil Pan

This morning I ran the car again to bring it up to temperature and then drained the Vinegar. Filled the system with distilled water and ran it for an hour. Drained the water and filled the system with Peak 50/50 green antifreeze. It says it has a boiling point of 265°, but I doubt it.

Here are the temps with Peak 50/50:
280° #4 cylinder
262° #1 cylinder
246° Head
230° Top of Radiator
185° Bottom of Radiator
218° Oil Pan

It should be noted that the 5% Vinegar did flush a bunch of rust out of the system. It also cleaned my brass radiator like new. I am also using Rotella oil because it has a JASCO rating which is required for Wet Clutches in motorcycles. As the Model T has a Wet Clutch it only makes since to use an oil with this JASCO rating.

Some specific definitions should be noted. "Anti-freeze" is mainly made up of ethylene glycol or propylene glycol & lowers the freezing point, while "Coolant" is made up of a 50-50 mixture of water and antifreeze and is intended to raise the boiling point of the fluid in the cooling system.
NOTE: "Coolants" have a higher heat capacity than water. Which means they will require more heat energy to reach the same temperature which water can reach with much lesser energy. Components in the coolant also raise its boiling point making it safer for operation in the engine.
--
So why does the 5% Vinegar mix look better than the Peal 50/50? This was not a controlled scientific test and many variables could affect the results. Having said that: It would have been good to have noted the time the measurements started from engine start. The results look consistent (except Evans) in that the order of highest to lowest readings match the same reference points.
--
The problem in referencing Antifreeze/Coolant data is that they are in reference to pressurized systems which by themselves raise the boiling point of the fluid. So while atmospheric pressure affects the boiling point a cooling system, a pressurized system removes that effect. A 15 psi radiator cap (spring in cap regulates pressure) will add 45 degrees to the boiling point for a final boiling point. None the less, the stated boiling point is the boiling point, the cap just makes it harder to get there.

The vinegar solution helped to clean out deposits and cylinder block rust helping the coolant to be in liquid contact to transfer heat to coolant.

Never mind the coolant, I want to hear more about that International (I presume)!

Erik Johnson wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:09 pm

My father ordered a case of "Evans Waterless Coolant for Air-Cooled Engines" for his non-T and, a week later, a box of empty jugs showed-up on the front stoop.

The JASCO rating may not have much relevance to a Model T using a stock clutch and band lining materials.

It seems that your cooling system is fouled with rust, if nothing else, such as lime or grease.

A complete cleaning of the entire system will do more for its performance than any miracle product you could add.

I believe that all good commercial anti-freeze/coolant products contain wetting agents, anti-foam agents, and anti-corrosion agents. They probably also contain some kind of water pump seal lubricant, unless the ethylene glycol base has sufficient lubricity.

Even the slightest leakage of combustion gases into the water jacket will cause accellerated corrosion, and any significant combustion leakage will lead to coolant loss, aeration, and may cause false boilover due to coolant aeration and steam bubbles displacing coolant. That will quickly lead to actual boiling, or destructive overheating if a high boiling point coolant is in use.

The best coolant for a Model T is clean water and enough commercial antifreeze to prevent freezing and retard corrosion. That's usually 30 to 50 % antifreeze.

Beyond that, a clean system, a leak-free head gasket, and a competent operator will assure economical, problem free operation under most any conditions.

Some information may be missing-

Coolant effects of water, kerosene, and 100% glycol.

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/5 ... 1463096065

The The JASCO rating is very relevant to a Model T

From https://silodrome.com/history-model-t-ford/
"..Ford’s engineers understood this and chose instead to use an epicyclic gearbox (planetary gearbox) with drive bands which would eliminate that difficulty in gear changing. The transmission used a wet clutch and provided two forward gears and a reverse gear, although it was advertised as being a “three speed” transmission."
--
From https://www.modeltcentral.com/transmiss ... ation.html
The clutch assembly provides the physical "break" between the action of the engine and the rear axle, without it, the car would always be moving when the engine was running. The clutch is comprised of two sets of different sized steel discs. The larger set have recesses in their circumference that engage with lugs on the inside of the brake drum, so that these discs do whatever the brake drum does. In between each larger disc is a small disc that engages with the clutch disc drum, these are sandwiched and rely on engine oil to provide lubrication and prevent wear. The clutch disc drum is fixed to the end of the transmission shaft and therefore rotates with it, as do the small clutch discs.
--
From https://www.lubesngreases.com/magazine/ ... ch-fluids/
A wet clutch (as opposed to a dry clutch) is bathed in a cooling, lubricating fluid to protect both steel and friction plates from wear. Wet clutches are ideal for high torque applications, which include motorcycles and several types of transmissions in passenger cars and heavy-duty vehicles.
Four-stroke motorcycles are one of the most common vehicles that use a wet clutch system. Most motorcycle transmissions employ a multiple-plate wet clutch, which stacks clutch discs to compensate for the lower coefficient of friction in a wet system and help eliminate slippage under full power.
--
Likewise, transmission bands are bathed in a cooling, lubricating fluid to protect both transmission drums and band material from wear.

The Ford clutch is steel on steel and was designed to operate with non-detergent, light bodied, single-viscosity motor oil.

Bands were cotton on cast iron.

I get excellent clutch, brake, and band action using full synthetic, mutil-grade engine oil made for general automotive use with a stock clutch and Kevlar bands.

Motorcycles and automatic transmissions typically use multi-disc clutches due to space limitations. Many high torque, heavy duty applications, such as large trucks, buses, and farm tractors, use a single plate dry clutch.

A fully-enclosed, multi-disc clutch in an automatic transmission or motorcycle usually depends on being flooded with oil to carry off heat.

I used to have 2 old Harley Davidson mmotorcycles with belt primary conversions that ran the stock clutches dry.They worked about as well as any other Harley clutches I've ever used.

One was a '75 shovelhead and the other was a '47 knucklehead with a foot clutch.

So why does the 5% Vinegar mix look better than the Peal 50/50?

because it is essentially water

the list of temps shows:

very little flow through the radiator with Evans (lack of density gradation)
50/50 better at heat transfer than Evans
"water" better at heat transfer than 50/50
radiator is probably not as good as a new one but still cooling marginally adequately with standard coolant(s). It certainly is not up to the task of being one of the FEW that the manufacturer stated have used the stuff successfully

every bit of data is directly traceable back to the specific heat values of each of the 3 coolants and is as surprising as day following night.

this thread is the PERFECT example for the value of looking for well meaning opinion and shows how much caution should be used when someone says "I do it, and it's just fine (whatever "it" is)" as being very risky advice to simply blindly follow without understanding all of the facts and variables as they apply to YOU. Some people get away with murder, too, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Science

BTW, JTT - from my perch on top of the dead horse, I can almost see Montana...

_____________________________________________________

I use 100% glycol, the green stuff.

From a past post 23 July 2023 -

From its introduction to aviation in the 1940s, it was found (Ethylene Glycol) to have an advantage over water as a coolant, The introduction of ethylene glycol coolant, which with its higher boiling point (and higher coolant temperature) allowed a smaller radiator and thus a lower profile on certain aircraft.

Granted in a classified study from 1946, it was found that over all water was a better coolant. (https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA801100.pdf)

The makers of Green Stuff recommend a mixture of their product and clean water. A 50/50 mixture is typical.

As far as I know, straight Green Stuff is not recommended for automotive use by any maker of same.

(But what would they know? Obviously, they are conspiring with Big Water to git the Littleman...)