MTFCA Forum

OK, I've been driving Model T's for many years now and just recently learned something about hand cranking a Model T.

The obvious stuff first. Make sure your timer rod is adjusted to 15° after top dead center. Also make sure your coils are properly adjusted. I use the EECT to adjust mine.

Now for the lighting bolt idea. I was always under the impression that you had to crank the engine fast to start it. On our last tour, our club president Kenny told me of a story where he was trying to start an old tractor by spin the flywheel as fast as he could and wearing himself out. An old gentleman came over an showed Kenny the proper way to start the tractor. He slowly turned the flywheel and the minute the spark engaged so did the engine.

I tried this technique with my 1913. I don't use my hand, but rather use my foot to start the car as it is less stressful. I engage the crank on the right side and push down with my foot (taught to me by another old gentleman). You know the old tractor guy was right. After trying to start the car by kicking the crank as fast as I could, I tried the other approach. I gently pushed the hand crank and the minute the spark engaged so did the engine. I guess it makes since that a Model T will occasionally get a free start with no crank movement whatsoever.

Apparently old dogs can learn new tricks!

Here is Steve Jelfs response to that documented in a Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pv6HWWOGYA

In a similar vein, 91 year old Royce D. Peterson cranking a 1914 Ford:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhEnNzv6LBM

My engine turns over so hard that hand-cranking it (for me) is not an option. It cranks just as hard with a rear wheel jacked off the ground. I have no idea why. Even the starter will barely crank it over. It will start with the slow crank, and it runs great. It doesn't have a significant tendency to want to creep forward when idling in neutral. I have pretty much run out of ideas.

Erik Johnson wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 26, 2023 10:40 am

In a similar vein, 91 year old Royce D. Peterson cranking a 1914 Ford:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhEnNzv6LBM

I'm sure Mr. Peterson knows what he is doing ...but 50+ years ago I was taught to always tuck the thumb behind the crank handle to prevent 'jerking it off' in case of a kick. I guess if it never kicks, then it will never be an issue with your thumb

Rod,

Hope she never kicks on you as you're pushing down with your foot. Broken ankles are probably no better than broken wrists.

John Codman wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:43 am

My engine turns over so hard that hand-cranking it (for me) is not an option. It cranks just as hard with a rear wheel jacked off the ground. I have no idea why. Even the starter will barely crank it over. It will start with the slow crank, and it runs great. It doesn't have a significant tendency to want to creep forward when idling in neutral. I have pretty much run out of ideas.

There are only a few things possible for creating the extra drag.
Still tight with one wheel up IN GEAR?

Whats the back ground? Fresh motor?

Possibilities: Parking brakes tight. Bands too tight. Bearings set too tight. Pistons to tight in the bores. Bent rods. Tight wrist pins
All this stuff(less main bearings) is simple enough to test & rule out.

Good luck.

Speedytinc - Original engine (It's a '27 and the engine and frame numbers match) I pulled the head for a general inspection right after I bought it (about a decade ago) and could find nothing that would make me believe that the engine has ever had any significant work done on it. I know a bit of the history of this car, which spent a lot of it's life on the privately-owned Naushon and Nonnamessett Islands off the coast of Massachusetts. I presume it was garaged, because there is not any significant rust. The Islands are connected by a private bridge and have just about five miles of unpaved roads between them. I would suspect that this may well be one of the lowest mileage unrestored Model Ts in existence.

In warm weather, with suitable crankcase oil, if you remove the spark plugs and pull the lever back, the engine should be easy to spin with the crank. If it isn't, something is out of adjustment.

With the spark plugs in and the ignition off, the engine should move easily with the crank until compression comes up. It should not be extremely difficult to pull the engine through compression on any cylinder, and all 4 should give about the same resistance.

It should not be necessary to jack up a wheel to start the car.

RE: Royce D. Peterson's thumb

You'll notice in the video that sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't wrap his thumb around the crank. I attribute that to old age.

Royce was a talented Model T Ford mechanic. He was born in 1917 and was around Model T Fords his entire life; Royce's father owned a garage, the "Auto Inn" in Eagle Bend, MN (photo below taken in 1919) and Royce started working Model Ts as a kid.

My father bought his first Model T in 1948 when has 16 and knew Royce starting in 1949 - they lived near each other in south Minneapolis. They were both charter members of the Minnesota Region of the AACA.

Royce passed away in 2015:

https://www.startribune.com/obituaries/detail/77311/

John Codman wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 26, 2023 12:50 pm

Speedytinc - Original engine (It's a '27 and the engine and frame numbers match) I pulled the head for a general inspection right after I bought it (about a decade ago) and could find nothing that would make me believe that the engine has ever had any significant work done on it. I know a bit of the history of this car, which spent a lot of it's life on the privately-owned Naushon and Nonnamessett Islands off the coast of Massachusetts. I presume it was garaged, because there is not any significant rust. The Islands are connected by a private bridge and have just about five miles of unpaved roads between them. I would suspect that this may well be one of the lowest mileage unrestored Model Ts in existence.

That helps.
I would rule out bands too tight & bent rods. I presume you have changed the oil & have 30wt or lighter oil in, not the original oil that has turned to chicken fat.
I would pull the plugs & squirt in some Kroil. Let sit overnight & see if it cranks any easier.

I was taught/learned that Babbitt will grow in a fresh bearing job & get tight.
Therefore, I would pull the dip cover & check if the rod bearings are to tight. You should be able to move the rod bearing front to rear with friction on the throw. If there is no room to slide fore & aft, check clearance with plastigauge. As with a to tight fresh Babbitt job, I would add a thin shim to get proper clearance. Same could be done on 1 & 2 mains.

Once sorted out, run the motor In place with a box fan for cooling to run it in. All up on jack stands in high gear.

Good luck. You are fortunate to have such a fine T.

Thanks for the tips. I never even considered the obvious and I will pull the plugs and hand-crank it. The engine was run in in 1927 and I doubt that it's too tight but if necessary I will check the rods. I do not jack up a wheel to start the car, jacking it up doesn't make any significant difference in the cranking speed.

I would conclude there is extra friction in the bores from rust @ the least.
Not run since 1927 & stored near the ocean. Regardless of being garaged, moisture had to have had an effect.

What a prize T.

I'm thinking clutch or band issues, or both. Probably adjustment. Old bands might be partly detached. (?)

Engine has run, and run well, recently. I believe that rules out tight bearings or pistons.

Fourth main attaching bolts loose? Worth a look...

It wouldn't be difficult to take off the transmission cover plate and look at the bands and springs, and check for 'possum nests, etc.

Does the car roll easily in "neutral"? It should.

Bent pan???

I have been forever amused at the idea that one must spin the engine over rapidly to start. The idea is, prime the cylinder with fuel using the choke,gently lift the crank handle up to the point where it it is timed to fire. Let the resulting explosion in the cylinder do the work. wish I could post video here. A T with a well sorted gas supply and spark is the simplest car to start. Everyone should work towards that goal.

Mine starts itself, often as not. Try that with your smug little Minicooper!

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 27, 2023 1:55 pm

I would conclude there is extra friction in the bores from rust @ the least.
Not run since 1927 & stored near the ocean. Regardless of being garaged, moisture had to have had an effect.

What a prize T.

If I gave the impression that it had not been run since new I apologize. It was run, but very little and I presume summers only. I have been trying to get in contact with John Kerry - yes, that John Kerry - who spent quite a bit of time when he was younger on the two islands to see what he knows about the T. John Kerry's middle name is Forbes, the family that owns the islands. So far, no luck.

Aussie16 wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:00 am

I have been forever amused at the idea that one must spin the engine over rapidly to start. The idea is, prime the cylinder with fuel using the choke,gently lift the crank handle up to the point where it it is timed to fire. Let the resulting explosion in the cylinder do the work. wish I could post video here. A T with a well sorted gas supply and spark is the simplest car to start. Everyone should work towards that goal.

I know that the engine in Model Ts don't have to spin fast to start. If they did, mine would not ever run. For reference the 8.5:1 360 cubic inch Lycoming engine in my now-gone but beloved Comanche spun easier then the 4:1 T.

I would want to find the problem and correct it, ASAP.

A dragging clutch will make starting difficult, and could cause wear and overheating of the clutch if the car runs in "neutral" for any extended period of time.

A dragging band, besides causing hard starting, can lead to cracked transmission or brake drums, poor performance, and engine overheating.

A loose or misaligned oil pan or 4th main bearing can cause serious issues with the crankshaft and main bearings.

If you raise both rear wheels off the ground and put the car in "neutral", the rear wheels should turn easily with only a little drag. If they don't, or if either one does not, you likely have a dragging clutch or dragging parking brakes or both.


If yuo remove the spark plugs and put the car in "neutral", the engine should spin fairly easily with the hand crank, and it should spin rather rapidly with the starter.

If it does not, you have a dragging clutch, very heavy or dirty oil, one or
more dragging bands, or some issue with 4th main alignment.

A long shot would be some issue with the generator causing high friction or ragged out magneto windings or band debris balled up around the flywheel.

Again, I suspect an issue with the clutch or band adjustment, linkage adjustment, or failing bands that don't release properly.

John Forbes Kerry-Kohn may send EPA agents out to confiscate your emissions-spewing old car. Beware!

It's really low in Nox though.

Probably zero NOX... If you ran it on propane, it would be a low emissions vehicle.

...wish I could post video here.

You can copy and paste a link to one, as Michael did.

You could drain the oil and refil with clean new stuff. Then hook on a rope and flat tow it around the block, a time or two. That ought to knock out all the drag in internal components, and give you a better feel of how it hand cranks. I f there is no difference, then go looking for causes.

Allan from down under.

A well tuned coil system and good carburetor and good compression, any Model T add should start easily. If it does not start with maybe two lifts on the crank while choked, (cold engine), one more lift on the crank should start it, if it does not start, some area either ignition or poor compression may be to blame. Everything has to be in good working order to start easily as with any engine.

A well tuned coil system and good carburetor and good compression, any Model T add should start easily. If it does not start with maybe two lifts on the crank while choked, (cold engine), one more lift on the crank should start it, if it does not start, some area either ignition or poor compression may be to blame. Everything has to be in good working order to start easily as with any engine.
I would highly advise to not “kick start” your car as that is not the proper way. Also make sure spark is fully retarded as to prevent kick back should ignition fire before TDC. Also keep thumb under the crank handle.