What is this part?
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Topic author - Posts: 272
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:40 pm
- First Name: jay
- Last Name: bolante
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1922 Runabout
- Location: columbia city indiana
- MTFCA Number: 31221
- Board Member Since: 2015
What is this part?
A friend acquired this head. Neither he nor I know if this is an accessory for a T engine. Can anyone shed any information?
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- Posts: 4307
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Tomaso
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
- Location: Longbranch, WA
- MTFCA Number: 14972
- MTFCI Number: 15411
- Board Member Since: 2001
Re: What is this part?
I believe that head is an Akron or something like that - it's valve action is operated by ball bearings in those tubes !
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- Posts: 4307
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Tomaso
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
- Location: Longbranch, WA
- MTFCA Number: 14972
- MTFCI Number: 15411
- Board Member Since: 2001
Re: What is this part?
And yes, it's for a Model T.
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- Posts: 1285
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:13 pm
- First Name: Donnie
- Last Name: Brown
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Sport Touring, 1919 Speedster, 1914 Speedster, Wards tractor conversion, non starter 1926 Improved Touring
- Location: Hills of Arkansas
- MTFCA Number: 49575
Re: What is this part?
Now that is a very interesting head. Anyone have anymore info on the design and use of one of these heads ?? I can visualize how it works, but "did it really work" ???
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- Posts: 3637
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
- First Name: Wayne
- Last Name: Sheldon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
- Location: Grass Valley California, USA
- Board Member Since: 2005
Re: What is this part?
They have been discussed a couple times years past. I know I have seen one myself, about fifty years ago. Someone I did not know bought it and said he would try to run it, but I don't think he ever got that far. I had heard he did some work to get it nearly ready to install, but never heard beyond that.
They are a very interesting design, but a flawed design. In theory, the bearing balls should push smoothly through the tubes. In reality, the idea works nicely at low speeds for a very short time. In reality, at any speeds above a very slow idle, the balls bind and wear both themselves and the tubes that guide them. The friction and binding/bunching results in a resistance to rapid motion, and in effect a delay is forced to valve action, causing even heavier wear on the moving parts.
One report said that although the solid cam and lifters could force the valves to open (often resulting in breakage or more wear), The binding and resistance to motion at higher than idle speeds caused the valves to delay closing, or "float". Which in turn resulted incomplete gasses exchange and poor running.
One could take such a head, and modify it to run on common type push rods and rocker arms. However, they are such an unusual item, they really are worth more (not in dollars for the greedy among us) as a display piece to show some of what was.
A really neat item!
They are a very interesting design, but a flawed design. In theory, the bearing balls should push smoothly through the tubes. In reality, the idea works nicely at low speeds for a very short time. In reality, at any speeds above a very slow idle, the balls bind and wear both themselves and the tubes that guide them. The friction and binding/bunching results in a resistance to rapid motion, and in effect a delay is forced to valve action, causing even heavier wear on the moving parts.
One report said that although the solid cam and lifters could force the valves to open (often resulting in breakage or more wear), The binding and resistance to motion at higher than idle speeds caused the valves to delay closing, or "float". Which in turn resulted incomplete gasses exchange and poor running.
One could take such a head, and modify it to run on common type push rods and rocker arms. However, they are such an unusual item, they really are worth more (not in dollars for the greedy among us) as a display piece to show some of what was.
A really neat item!
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- Posts: 169
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:13 am
- First Name: Harold
- Last Name: Schwendeman
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: several
- Location: Sumner, WA
Re: What is this part?
This is strictly from "memory" from reading, many years ago, about this overhead valve design and why it was considered a failure. Besides what Wayne noted concerning the resistance to motion from friction & binding, I remember that it was also determined that the combined weight of each tube full of steel balls caused a problem at higher speed that had to do with inertia and the fact that the solid column of those steel balls were too heavy to continually change direction fast enough to operate the valves without "valve float". As mentioned above however, that head certainly makes a fine "collectors piece as I'll bet they must be very, very rare! It certainly looks to be in perfect condition!
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- Posts: 169
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:13 am
- First Name: Harold
- Last Name: Schwendeman
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: several
- Location: Sumner, WA
Re: What is this part?
.....actually, I guess Wayne said the same thing, only said it better when he said,...."resistance to rapid motion"! Sorry Wayne,....I didn't read carefully enough!
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- Posts: 3637
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
- First Name: Wayne
- Last Name: Sheldon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
- Location: Grass Valley California, USA
- Board Member Since: 2005
Re: What is this part?
No worries Harold S ! I thought all your comments were very good.
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- Posts: 6789
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:51 am
- First Name: Richard
- Last Name: Eagle
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 TR 1914 TR 1915 Rd 1920 Spdstr 1922 Coupe 1925 Tudor
- Location: Idaho Falls, ID
- MTFCA Number: 1219
- Contact:
Re: What is this part?
Here is the earlier discussion of it.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/350261.html
It's nice to see a real one.
Thanks
Rich
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/350261.html
It's nice to see a real one.
Thanks
Rich
When did I do that?
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- Posts: 426
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:42 am
- First Name: Philip
- Last Name: Lawrence
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring
- Location: Auburn, CA
- MTFCA Number: 5591
- MTFCI Number: 25062
- Board Member Since: 2014
Re: What is this part?
Back in 1975 a good friend of my father-in-law's entered a brass era speedster in the Santa Clara model T speedster run that was equipped with an Akron head.
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- Posts: 4956
- Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Gregush
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 cutdown PU, 1920 Dodge touring, 1948 F2 Ford flat head 6 pickup 3 speed
- Location: Portland Or
- MTFCA Number: 52564
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: What is this part?
Years ago a guy from I think California brought one of those to some of the swap meet in the Portland Or area. Wanted too much for my budget even back then. Even back then thought it was neat but just a little too funky.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup
1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup
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- Posts: 1182
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:27 am
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Codman
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Youring
- Location: Naples, FL 34120
Re: What is this part?
I think with that valve layout it would be very difficult to modify that head to use pushrods and rocker arms.
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- Posts: 111
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:13 am
- First Name: Randy
- Last Name: Brown
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1910 Speedster, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Roadster, 1926 TT, 1923 boattail (project)
- Location: Austin, Texas
- MTFCA Number: 7352
- Contact:
Re: What is this part?
The Museum of American Speed has one of these heads on display. Check it out.
https://www.museumofamericanspeed.com/halakronhed.html
https://www.museumofamericanspeed.com/halakronhed.html
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Topic author - Posts: 272
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:40 pm
- First Name: jay
- Last Name: bolante
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1922 Runabout
- Location: columbia city indiana
- MTFCA Number: 31221
- Board Member Since: 2015
Re: What is this part?
My friend who owns this Akron-Hed unit wishes to sell it.
If interested please contact him at 260-602-5362.
His name is John and he lives near Fort Wayne IN.
btw...John and I are grateful for the comments and education about this accessory head.
Many thanks.
If interested please contact him at 260-602-5362.
His name is John and he lives near Fort Wayne IN.
btw...John and I are grateful for the comments and education about this accessory head.
Many thanks.