What is this part?

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
jaybee47
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:40 pm
First Name: jay
Last Name: bolante
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1922 Runabout
Location: columbia city indiana
MTFCA Number: 31221
Board Member Since: 2015

What is this part?

Post by jaybee47 » Wed May 22, 2019 10:06 pm

A friend acquired this head. Neither he nor I know if this is an accessory for a T engine. Can anyone shed any information?
Attachments
T head.jpeg
T head,a.jpeg

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 4307
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: What is this part?

Post by RajoRacer » Wed May 22, 2019 10:18 pm

I believe that head is an Akron or something like that - it's valve action is operated by ball bearings in those tubes !

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 4307
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: What is this part?

Post by RajoRacer » Wed May 22, 2019 10:19 pm

And yes, it's for a Model T.

User avatar

dobro1956
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:13 pm
First Name: Donnie
Last Name: Brown
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Sport Touring, 1919 Speedster, 1914 Speedster, Wards tractor conversion, non starter 1926 Improved Touring
Location: Hills of Arkansas
MTFCA Number: 49575

Re: What is this part?

Post by dobro1956 » Wed May 22, 2019 10:31 pm

Now that is a very interesting head. Anyone have anymore info on the design and use of one of these heads ?? I can visualize how it works, but "did it really work" ???


Wayne Sheldon
Posts: 3637
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
Location: Grass Valley California, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: What is this part?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu May 23, 2019 1:42 am

They have been discussed a couple times years past. I know I have seen one myself, about fifty years ago. Someone I did not know bought it and said he would try to run it, but I don't think he ever got that far. I had heard he did some work to get it nearly ready to install, but never heard beyond that.

They are a very interesting design, but a flawed design. In theory, the bearing balls should push smoothly through the tubes. In reality, the idea works nicely at low speeds for a very short time. In reality, at any speeds above a very slow idle, the balls bind and wear both themselves and the tubes that guide them. The friction and binding/bunching results in a resistance to rapid motion, and in effect a delay is forced to valve action, causing even heavier wear on the moving parts.
One report said that although the solid cam and lifters could force the valves to open (often resulting in breakage or more wear), The binding and resistance to motion at higher than idle speeds caused the valves to delay closing, or "float". Which in turn resulted incomplete gasses exchange and poor running.

One could take such a head, and modify it to run on common type push rods and rocker arms. However, they are such an unusual item, they really are worth more (not in dollars for the greedy among us) as a display piece to show some of what was.
A really neat item!


HaroldRJr
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:13 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: several
Location: Sumner, WA

Re: What is this part?

Post by HaroldRJr » Thu May 23, 2019 3:53 am

This is strictly from "memory" from reading, many years ago, about this overhead valve design and why it was considered a failure. Besides what Wayne noted concerning the resistance to motion from friction & binding, I remember that it was also determined that the combined weight of each tube full of steel balls caused a problem at higher speed that had to do with inertia and the fact that the solid column of those steel balls were too heavy to continually change direction fast enough to operate the valves without "valve float". As mentioned above however, that head certainly makes a fine "collectors piece as I'll bet they must be very, very rare! It certainly looks to be in perfect condition!


HaroldRJr
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:13 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: several
Location: Sumner, WA

Re: What is this part?

Post by HaroldRJr » Thu May 23, 2019 3:56 am

.....actually, I guess Wayne said the same thing, only said it better when he said,...."resistance to rapid motion"! Sorry Wayne,....I didn't read carefully enough!


Wayne Sheldon
Posts: 3637
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
Location: Grass Valley California, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: What is this part?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu May 23, 2019 4:43 am

No worries Harold S ! I thought all your comments were very good.

User avatar

Rich Eagle
Posts: 6789
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:51 am
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Eagle
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 TR 1914 TR 1915 Rd 1920 Spdstr 1922 Coupe 1925 Tudor
Location: Idaho Falls, ID
MTFCA Number: 1219
Contact:

Re: What is this part?

Post by Rich Eagle » Thu May 23, 2019 8:26 am

Here is the earlier discussion of it.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/350261.html
It's nice to see a real one.
Thanks
Rich
When did I do that?


Philip Lawrence
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:42 am
First Name: Philip
Last Name: Lawrence
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring
Location: Auburn, CA
MTFCA Number: 5591
MTFCI Number: 25062
Board Member Since: 2014

Re: What is this part?

Post by Philip Lawrence » Thu May 23, 2019 9:38 am

Back in 1975 a good friend of my father-in-law's entered a brass era speedster in the Santa Clara model T speedster run that was equipped with an Akron head.

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 4956
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 cutdown PU, 1920 Dodge touring, 1948 F2 Ford flat head 6 pickup 3 speed
Location: Portland Or
MTFCA Number: 52564
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: What is this part?

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu May 23, 2019 10:52 am

Years ago a guy from I think California brought one of those to some of the swap meet in the Portland Or area. Wanted too much for my budget even back then. Even back then thought it was neat but just a little too funky. :lol:
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup


John Codman
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:27 am
First Name: John
Last Name: Codman
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Youring
Location: Naples, FL 34120

Re: What is this part?

Post by John Codman » Thu May 23, 2019 11:04 am

I think with that valve layout it would be very difficult to modify that head to use pushrods and rocker arms.

User avatar

ModelTSpeedster
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:13 am
First Name: Randy
Last Name: Brown
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1910 Speedster, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Roadster, 1926 TT, 1923 boattail (project)
Location: Austin, Texas
MTFCA Number: 7352
Contact:

Re: What is this part?

Post by ModelTSpeedster » Thu May 23, 2019 12:00 pm

The Museum of American Speed has one of these heads on display. Check it out.

https://www.museumofamericanspeed.com/halakronhed.html


Topic author
jaybee47
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:40 pm
First Name: jay
Last Name: bolante
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1922 Runabout
Location: columbia city indiana
MTFCA Number: 31221
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: What is this part?

Post by jaybee47 » Thu May 23, 2019 6:17 pm

My friend who owns this Akron-Hed unit wishes to sell it.
If interested please contact him at 260-602-5362.
His name is John and he lives near Fort Wayne IN.
btw...John and I are grateful for the comments and education about this accessory head.
Many thanks.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic