MTFCA Forum

I came across this really neat history how Ford went from using slotted head screws to Phillips head screws... Also Canadian built bodies using Robertson heads? I'd be curious to know if anyone's car Canadian built or later America built Model T has Robertson head screws or Phillips head
Interesting none the less...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-mDqKtivuI

I've seen many T's with Phillips head screws, but I don't think they used them on Fords until sometime around 1940.
Many people when replacing parts such as body parts and floorboards have used Phillips for replacements. As for Canada I just don't know much about them.
Norm

The "Phillips" screw was invented by John P. Thompson who patented his design in 1932 (U. S. Pat. 1,908,080). Mr. Phillips gets the credit for making it practicable and available to the U. S. auto industry. According to wikipedia, the fasteners first appeared on the 1936 Cadillac.

Opinion : they scratch my eyeballs when used on cars older than late 30's, and I dislike working with. I find screw drivers never quite fit, so they strip out the heads far too easily.

Mike,

I tell everyone that my Depot Hack body is 'Canadian'. While my body was built in Missouri by John S.....he always uses square drive screws...lol. You don't like 'em, you take them out and change them. Me, it's a Canadian 'thing'.

Yes, Robertson screws are common on our Canadian built Ts. It was a different board of directors in Canada and they decided the speed up of production was more important than Henry being upset that Robertson would not sell him the patent for his screws (which is why the US did not use Robertson screws) - slotted screws were used as well in places.

Some pictures of Roberston screws in an original 'timewarp' center door:

and here us a 'shade tree' solution when you didn't have a Robertson screw driver

Thirty years ago, I was restoring my early 1916 T center-door sedan. I had a close friend that had a Canadian built early 1916 center-door sedan. His car and mine had both been victims of bad 1950s restorations where a lot of wrong parts had been used making them poor examples of what was or wasn't correct. Still, I spent some amount of time going over his car, and discussing with him details and "correctness" as we best knew.
His Canadian center-door sedan, in the 1916 style, still had the original gasoline tank under the rear seat! It also had had the front seat replaced by a previous owner due to the fuel flow issues that rear seat tank was known for (and why Ford switched to the tank under the driver's seat for 1916!). The rear seat tank was disconnected, but still in the car. According to the previous owner, that change was made during the 1950s.
So his car was apparently a very early true 1916 style center-door sedan.
Nearly all screwdriver driven screws in the car were Robertson screws. The solid original body had apparently never been disassembled, and most likely most of the screws in it were the original factory screws.

I agree. I don’t care for Phillips head screws and would never use one on a Model T. Whenever I strip out a Phillips head screw when trying to remove it, I take a dremel tool with a metal cutting disc and cut a slot across the top so it can be removed with a standard screw driver. Jim Patrick

Have to remember that the Canadian bodies were made by Fisher starting 1912. It is very hard to find any documentation showing when Fisher started to use Robertson screws on the bodies they made. More than one original Canadian 1914 body seen has a combination of slotted and Robertson screws. As the teens progressed there were more Robertson and less slotted screws. Into the 1920's the Canadian made bodies used almost all Robertson screws.
From the mid 1920's on the closed cars used nickel plated brass Robertson screws to secure the trim. This continued with the Model A's.
These are all observations of original cars. Very difficult to find any kind of documentation referencing this.

Kevin

It is worth remembering that Robinson screws are superior to Phillips screws. Both allow for easier centering of the driver, but the Robinson drive is far more robust and less likely to strip. This is recognised in power driven decking screws today. Screws which have to cut their own track in substrates require far more drive force than threaded machine screws, and Phillips screws are not up to the task.

Allan from down under.

Put me in the camp of greatly disliking Phillips screws. The pitch and sharpness varies greatly, always did, both screws and drivers had serious fit issues causing stripping out and often bruised or gouged fingers (not to mention the pain in the *$$ of getting them fully tightened!). However, at work, some of the specialized and security equipment we used also used Roberson screws! I have had special drivers for them for almost fifty years now! At that time, they were difficult to get in the US. I love them! Robertson screws are an order of magnitude better than Phillips screws any day!

I read that Phillips head screws were designed to "cam out" the factory powered drivers used to install them on the assembly line at a certain applied torque.
This was before accurate torque limiting drivers were available.

Observations from my Ford bits and pile.

I have a '15 Canadian roadster and '13 Canadian touring and parts of a '14 Canadian touring.

The '13 I believe is a "late" 13 assembled March/April 1913. Fisher Canada body. The body is assembled using all slotted wood screws.

The '14, mainly doors remaining, all the wood is assembled with Robertson wood screws.

The '15, the body wood is assembled with Robertson screws.

The Robertson screws in the earlier Ts that I have looked at all appear to be wood screws for assembling the body wood and later on body accessories, like the door check straps etc. which often used oval head nickeled Robertson wood screws.

Regular slotted head machine screws still are present most everywhere where machine screws are used.

Robertson kept up their patent rights around most of the world for years afterward, although they have yet to catch on well in the US. Its been my "theory" for a long time that the Philips screw head design was a work around to get around the Robertson patents while still trying to get the benefits of the design.

My 0.7 cents worth.

nsbrassnut wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 15, 2023 8:27 pm

Observations from my Ford bits and pile.

Its been my "theory" for a long time that the Philips screw head design was a work around to get around the Robertson patents while still trying to get the benefits of the design.

My 0.7 cents worth.

It is my opinion that they for the most part, failed miserably!
In spite of being in the USA, for about fifty years, I have used both. I loathe Phillips, and love Robertson screws!