MTFCA Forum

Part of this is Model t related and part of it is not.

A few months ago, as most of us are aware, a knucklehead by the name of whistlindiesel bought a Model T (somehow) and proceeded to make a video on destroying it for views and money on YouTube. There is absolutely nothing left of the poor 26-27 tudor T.
Then, a few weeks later, I was reading a warbird magazine and came across an article where a group of people destroyed a pby Catalina airplane from World War II. There was not really even much of a reason to destroy it other than to do so. It was in the middle of nowhere and was going to get restored someday.
Then a few days ago, i found an article on warbird news dot com about a pv1 airplane in California that was destroyed because it was in an old abandoned hanger that was getting torn down for a new apartments to be built. The City of Irving California was going to restore it but for some reason abandoned it around 2015. The airplane was sitting in the hangar ever since and was destroyed the same day the World War II plant hanger caught fire and burned. The airplane had sen service in wwii, and had quite the storied history.
https://vintageaviationnews.com/warbird ... ntura.html

The reason I brought all this up is to show the importance of the historical communities like ours. The mtfca, mafca, the Eaa, commerative airforce, etc are all very important to the preservation of history. It really saddened me to read about the senseless destruction of our American history. Sure, there are more 26 27 model ts, there are other wwii blimp hangers, and pv1 airplanes, and pby Catalinas. But thats not the point. Our history should not be allowed to simpley be ereased like this. I know that im preaching to the choir now, but i thought that i would tell you all, and to remind us all the importance of the Model Ts, historical aircraft, etc.

A few years ago a guy was buying decent T’s and dismantling them for parts to sell at swap meets. He could make more than what he had in a mostly complete car by parting them out. I would not do that but some will. It’s his cars but I would never do that. To each his own but that’s to far in my book.

It is sad to see wonderful things destroyed. Thousands of us love these things and treat them well. One or two crazies won't change the grand scheme of things. It is good for us to note the few sad incidents. I enjoy my cars and most of us find different ways to enjoy them. Who knows where they will end up in a hundred years, but I am optimistic. Yes, this Forum and the clubs will influence what happens.
Do what you can and hope for the best.
Rich

The loss of history is sad of course, but what upsets me beyond that, is simply the perverse joy in the act of destruction. To my thinking, there is something intrinsically abnormal in the act of senseless destruction. Is there some satisfaction in knowing that the destructive act is going to upset somebody? What a nice legacy these people will leave behind... I can see their tombstone, "He sure broke a lot of stuff".

Keep in mind...

There is one in every crowd.

Art Mirtes

This makes me think of an incident that happened at our Church. Someone or some group of people entered our Cemetery and knocked over about forty gravestones. They must have done in in the night. They did not break the more modern ones, but broke the earlier thin type of marble ones that were put up in the 1800's. What purpose did that serve? It created work and expense to repair them. We were about to celebrate the 200th year of being a parish in November and some of these stones were for some of the founding members. I think the damage was done in April.

The only sure way to save a threatened historic machine is to step up and buy it, then do the necessary work yourself. That’s not always economically feasible. Want to save history? But the SS United States and restore it. It only costs $1000 a day to keep it docked where it is. Otherwise it’s going to eventually become an artificial reef. That said, there’s a lot of affordable T’s available lately that can be saved.

We have to remember some people don’t like historic preservation. If statues could talk they would call it cancel culture these days. Think about it.

John kuehn wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:01 pm

We have to remember some people don’t like historic preservation. If statues could talk they would call it cancel culture these days. Think about it.

Yea, Lee and Traveler never had a chance.
Cut apart,took down,and melted somewhere behind closed doors.
All to appease the uneducated.
Preservation can be done for our cars, our heritage,everything to a point,by educating people about it.

I’ve always believed that the EPA was secretly bankrolling publications like HotRod, StreetRod, and the like. Why play the bad guy by directly outlawing old cars, when it’s possible to convince the public to voluntarily dismantle or permanently cripple their old cars themselves. No doubt the EPA has expanded their interests beyond print publications in modern times…

Remember "Cash for Clunkers"? That was the Anti-Preservation League.

I have always felt that ownership is also stewardship. I am just one of a line of owners who have had the foresight to preserve and maintain it. My goal is enjoyment and education, but also to leave it to someone who can see the value in it that equates to something more than dollars. I have several classic Mustangs and Cougars that have found their way to me over the years. Most are solid project cars, but everyone of them is more than the basic model. I had decided to sell a 1970 Mustang convertible a few years ago, but after I heard the future owners plans for it, I declined to sell it to him. He wanted to turn a 50xxx mile 302 powered A/C, power steering, power brake car into a drag car with tubs and a roll cage. That was a hard NO on the sale. I too would refuse to sell my Model T to someone wanting to turn it into a hot rod.

If the prior owners had chosen that route, where would my roadster be? How could I share it with my 10 year old granddaughter?

We, in this community, are preserving history through our blood, sweat, and passion.

Paul Freeman, as Belloq, in Raiders of the Last Ark, said “ we are merely passing thru history, this is history”

Scott,
Proud owner of a bit of history

Along with my T, I also collect antique phonographs. The same thing happens with those.
I suspect that destruction, of anything, can only amuse those who have neither created nor repaired nor salvaged anything. Or just have no sense of history.
They know the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

m_p_dean@yahoo.com wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:15 pm

Along with my T, I also collect antique phonographs. The same thing happens with those.
I suspect that destruction, of anything, can only amuse those who have neither created nor repaired nor salvaged anything. Or just have no sense of history.
They know the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

I collect phonographs also!

I agree 100% with everything you said!
Very well stated.

The ultimate, non-caring attitude towards preservation: A church cemetery where my 2nd greats were buried. The church removed to headstones to level the ground for drainage back in the day. The stones were placed back in a random order. The greats were buried next to each other, now their stones are nowhere near each other.

" The greats were buried next to each other, now their stones are nowhere near each other."

Well, this shows the importance of documentation.

A gentle interrogation to determine the buyer's intent is always warranted, and frequently necessary. You don't have to reveal YOUR thoughts and ideas, as the purpose is to discern THEIRS before you sell off a car that could meet a "fate worse than death" in the hands of people who have no real idea of what they are doing. I would prefer to shuffle them off to some other car that is more suited to their desires, and let them "crop the ears and tail" of some unfortunate iron from the 50's and 60's, rather than a car of Model T lineage that had a past, and still has a future. If I can get my cars into the hands of people who will care for them after I have relinquished my temporary custody of them, I will be happy, and can say I did my best both FOR and on behalf of my cars.

A kid in my neighborhood growing up was a weird one ..... he seemed to delight
in destroying things, being a malcontent, and relishing in the negative attention
it brought him. He interacted with us neighborhood kids a bit, but his behaviors
soon had everyone keeping him at a distance, which only fueled his anti-social
behavior more. At that age, I simplistically put him in the "Jerk File", but over
time, and endless episodes of his antics to see patterns in, I began to ponder a
deeper view of how this bonehead fit into a wider view of human nature. Over
time, more people just like him came across my radar and it became apparent there
is a whole slice of the humanity pizza made up of people like this. Totally disconnected
from any connection to community, history, or ethics/morals. Long before I served.
an elder Army friend imparted the axiom of "Duty above all else, except Honor".
This hit me deeply. To walk with honor is something some people "get", and clearly
some have absolutely no clue. All I can do is understand these types exist. I will
never understand their lack of connectedness.

when I was a kid my dad's '15 touring was to me the same age as his plain jane Ford Sedanis to a kid that same age now... Yikes! (And my first car, that 53 Ford Customline sedan, is the same age as a 2 lever 2 pedal...)

When I worked at Harrah's Automobile Collection, I had the occasion to show the dailies of a movie made with many of the collections brass era cars. The producer and other production people and Mr Harrah were in attendance, as I was the projectionist.

The conversation came to the film people discussing the collection and telling Mt Harrah how lucky he was to amass so many beautiful cars.

He responded that while yes he had collected many cars he was only the temporary custodian, he really did not own these historical vehicles, he was just taking care of them for the next generation.

I was in my mid 20's and did not understand why he did not take ownership. Yet statement made no sense to me, but I was to young and dumb to think about the context and real meaning. To paraphrase Mr Harrah's words, now at 80 years old I really understand what being a temporary custodian really means. Took me 40 plus years to understand. Having bought my share of collector cars for 50+ years, I can only hope a good share of those cars have been cared for and loved as I did.

just sayin'
brasscarguy

I agree with most of the comments above. The one that hits me the hardest is about people desecrating graveyards. When I lived in Medway, MA, I visited a local cemetery that had many of the old Marble (I think) stones vandalized and as a practical matter, destroyed. A person would have to be very close to the bottom of the barrel to do this sort of thing, and worse - somehow think that it's fun. One of the few things in this world that I can positively guarantee is that anyone who was caught vandalizing a graveyard would not want me to be the judge.

I am not much on hot rods, but it is part of the car culture in America and all over the world. i dispise people ruining nice cars to make "jalopies' out of them.BUT this is a car that had no chance,that preserved both culture,and the car,and taught the young people at the same time.
https://www.hagerty.com/media/car-profi ... 9165937b2b

I have absolutely no problem with the above hot rod. They even did it right with the finned aluminum heads and a pair of what are probably Stromberg '97s. That body would not have ben saved. In reality, they have created a vintage hot rod. Cool!

"In reality, they have created a vintage hot rod."

Would it not be a replica vintage hot rod.

Not a "replica". It was built the same way, using the same materials, as would have been used in the late 40's and 50's. Add to it the power plant IS high performance as was built back yonder, A "replica" would use an inordinate amount of modern stuff... this was built like the real deal. IDK about putting the quick change gearing rear end... I mean, I get it, but the old pumpkin serves it well, even though it DID shear a key... it was what was done.

For example, it's like making a "bitsa" 1911 open valve model T with correct year parts sourced from all over and putting it back on the road. Would that be called a "replica"? I mean, using that as criteria, there are a lot of fake replica Model T's out there... Hmmm?

And no, I have NO problem whatsoever with what the students and class did to this folded rusted abandoned hulk. They brought another one back to life, and saved it from being made into LG refrigerators in China. Learned a lot in the process... and have a "taco cart" they can be proud to have been a part of.

Susanne -

I beg to differ. From the WWW the source of current information (wiki) -

"A replica is an exact (usually 1:1 in scale) copy or remake of an object, made out of the same raw materials, whether a molecule, a work of art, or a commercial product. The term is also used for copies that closely resemble the original, without claiming to be identical.

"Replicas have been sometimes sold as originals, a type of fraud. Most replicas have more innocent purposes. Fragile originals need protection, while the public can examine a replica in a museum. Replicas are often manufactured and sold as souvenirs. "

From sema.org/replica:
A replica vehicle is a vehicle that resembles the body of another motor vehicle produced at least 25 years ago ('32 Roadster, '65 Cobra, etc.). (https://www.sema.org/replica)

Even the AACA has a class for the factory replica - https://forums.aaca.org/forum/98-factor ... -replicas/

And this from Australia: "Can you legally make a replica car" - https://historicvehicles.com.au/histori ... plica-car/.

Replicas can be constructed by an individual, major corporation, or other -- made in the image of the original. A car constructed from period bits (A Bitsa) to represent a period vehicle is a replica. As we all have been told it is only original once.

I guess that every Deuce roadster hot rod except the first one built is a replica. Hooda thunk?

I guess that every Deuce roadster hot rod except the first one built is a replica. Hooda thunk?

Yep! Hard to believe that an estimated 75% plus of the Model Ts, TT, Speedsters discussed here are replicas.

Sadly even North Carolina called my T pickup a replica for title purpose.made me sick but at least it's legal.

I feel really bad for all those <15 Model T owners who spent a lot of hard time and effort collecting correct parts, hundreds of hours of time, and tons of money to get that 1912 Commercial Roadster just right and prepped for a 100 point restoration just to have them find out what they have ISN'T a 100 Point model T but a "Replica". Dude, that's a nice replica 2 lever # 202... too bad it's not real. Like... WTF??

I'm out of here. This is going to get heated if it keeps up, and I didn't pay for an argument....

The United States is a republic - a nation of laws. If we don't like the laws in our state, there is a process whereby we can change them. Time to contact your representative in the state legislature.

"The United States is a republic - a nation of laws. If we don't like the laws in our state, there is a process whereby we can change them. Time to contact your representative in the state legislature."

I'll ask--

Please elaborate -- change what laws?

Laws that force a T owner to register it as a replica, when it is a Ford model T with an engine number. The fact that it was assembled using parts from other Model T Fords is irrelevant. The replacement rear bumper cover on my '05 Dodge Magnum came from another car. Does that make my car a replica? This whole thing is silly - it shouldn't even be an issue.

Yeah, well I FINALLY got a title for my 1912 Commercial Roadster that I bought on a bill of sale from a seller I knew very well. DMV ran the engine number 86,076 through the system and it came back as a stolen vehicle. Of course, the stolen vehicle was a 1968 Ford stolen in Newark, NJ (reported stolen in 1971) but that's beside the point. Long story short, my path to a title involved calling the car a "Replica" and gluing a VIN tag on the frame with their issued number on it. They can call it whatever they want, but I know what it really is. The important thing is I got a title in my name to prove ownership of the car.