MTFCA Forum

These are sunken in some, is that ok or do I need to fix it?


https://photos.app.goo.gl/rSHhjbznJVLNVpqV6

The seal cups appear to only be 1/2 way on. So the hub rubs into them.
Your felt seal wont over the key way.
Do the axle nuts fit tight with no wiggle.
Hopefully you are using original nuts or unplated nuts threaded accordingly.
Plated nuts fit to sloppy, I never use them.

Can I cut the felt seal down? It was brand new and seemed to b snug

JBog wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 01, 2024 2:31 pm

Can I cut the felt seal down? It was brand new and seemed to b snug

NO.
If you do there will be no sealing as designed.

The felt seal will compress from about 5/16 to 1/8". You have to get those cups seated much deeper to compress.
I use a driven gear shaft & a 3# hammer. Pound it on till it wont move any more. Oil the I D of the felt washer well before installing.

Some reference: The cup should completely cover the bearing race divot hole.
That tends to be 3/16-1/4" away from the end of the machined surface for the cup.

Take the caps back off and straighten them out. As they are now, they're pretty much ruined.

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 01, 2024 3:26 pm

Take the caps back off and straighten them out. As they are now, they're pretty much ruined.

I would try pressing them back into shape. They could save.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 01, 2024 4:13 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 01, 2024 3:26 pm

Take the caps back off and straighten them out. As they are now, they're pretty much ruined.

I would try pressing them back into shape. They could save.

Do the caps spin with the axle? Should the key way slot sit all the way behind the key?

JBog wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 01, 2024 4:40 pm

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 01, 2024 4:13 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 01, 2024 3:26 pm

Take the caps back off and straighten them out. As they are now, they're pretty much ruined.

I would try pressing them back into shape. They could save.

Do the caps spin with the axle? Should the key way slot sit all the way behind the key?

No. The caps don't spin. They are pressed onto the axle housing and can't spin. The keyway is only there to allow you to slip them over the axle and clear the key, (if it happens to be installed before the cap goes on).

Buy a set of these and throw the other ones out. That will solve 1/2 your problem.

Hi Jason,
I will assume you are working on the 1919 Touring? The diameter of the axle tube changed in 1919 so you need to make sure what size the tube
is to tell which seal you need so it will fit tight on the tube. I prefer the neoprene seal if the surface on the axle is in good shape. If not then
the felt may work better. If you need the smaller housing cap the steel are hard to find ( I have made a bead in my roller to make the larger
fit the smaller. ) If using the steel cap it should be smooth & flat so the outer felt ( between the cap & hub) has a good surface to run against.
My biggest concern is the threads on the axles. The one can be cleaned up by splitting a new nut, placing it on the axle close to the taper &
clamping it with a pair of vise grips ( well lubed ) and back it off the axle to restore the first couple of threads. The other axle I'm afraid will
need to be replace or have the treads recut to 9/16-18 & a new 9/16-18 nut installed to get a good purchase to hold the hub. If you choose
to rethread to 9/16 do not run the die all the way up to the taper as that can leave a groove that can promote a fracture.
Craig.

Yep, it’s the 1919. I will try to recut the threads, I just replaced both axles in October so I’m not sure what happened there. The caps were both new and seemed to be tight when I put the wheels back on, but I guess I need to whack them harder.

JBog wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 01, 2024 9:40 pm

Yep, it’s the 1919. I will try to recut the threads, I just replaced both axles in October so I’m not sure what happened there. The caps were both new and seemed to be tight when I put the wheels back on, but I guess I need to whack them harder.

Read what I said about nut fit again.

I'm in John's camp here - those do not appear to be new axle threads - did you use repro nuts ?

JBog wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 01, 2024 9:40 pm

Yep, it’s the 1919. I will try to recut the threads, I just replaced both axles in October so I’m not sure what happened there. The caps were both new and seemed to be tight when I put the wheels back on, but I guess I need to whack them harder.

Recutting pulled threads does not restore them. You can't put back on, material that's been worn away. You're only removing the part of the thread that's been burred over. Personally, I am not a fan of threading an axle undersize. Your one axle thread is marginal, at best. It should probably be replaced. The other appears to have some bad threads at the outer end. This means nothing, since the nut does not engage those threads when everything is tightened up. They tend to simply hang out of the end of the nut.

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 02, 2024 10:01 am

I'm in John's camp here - those do not appear to be new axle threads - did you use repro nuts ?

They're not new axle threads, because they're not new axles. They're marked "Ford". They are re-used original axles.

I "assumed" when he stated that he replaced the axles in October, they were new replacements.

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:35 pm

I "assumed" when he stated that he replaced the axles in October, they were new replacements.

No, I replaced a broken axle and damaged axle with two axles from a club member.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 02, 2024 8:04 am

JBog wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 01, 2024 9:40 pm

Yep, it’s the 1919. I will try to recut the threads, I just replaced both axles in October so I’m not sure what happened there. The caps were both new and seemed to be tight when I put the wheels back on, but I guess I need to whack them harder.

Read what I said about nut fit again.

How about using original nuts with some locktight? Would that be good enough?

Thought this might help some others that can't see the photos in question.

JBog wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:37 pm

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 02, 2024 8:04 am

JBog wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 01, 2024 9:40 pm

Yep, it’s the 1919. I will try to recut the threads, I just replaced both axles in October so I’m not sure what happened there. The caps were both new and seemed to be tight when I put the wheels back on, but I guess I need to whack them harder.

Read what I said about nut fit again.

How about using original nuts with some locktight? Would that be good enough?

Locktite wont fix damaged threads. Also if it locks on the nut, you wont be able to detect a loose nut in need of tightening.
It would be counter productive & dangerous. Stick to cotter pins.
I would CAREFULLY use a thread file on the visually damaged to straighten them. Then run a very good original castle nut on backwards to clean the threads. A die could remove extra material to add unwanted extra clearance.
Before doing anything, clean the dirt & junk out of the threads.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 02, 2024 5:31 pm

I would CAREFULLY use a thread file on the visually damaged to straighten them.

Files don't straighten threads.

JBog wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:37 pm

How about using original nuts with some locktight? Would that be good enough?

No. It would be dangerous.

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 02, 2024 5:38 pm

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 02, 2024 5:31 pm

I would CAREFULLY use a thread file on the visually damaged to straighten them.

Files don't straighten threads.

If the end threads could be straightened enough to thread on a castle nut backwards, the nut might straighten the threads.
Then turn the nut around & evaluate the fit.

Using Josephs pics the thread on the first pic has been over tightened or crossthreaded & a 5/8 nut will not hold the hub securelly. #2 pic cap is
in bad shape & should be replaced. Pic #3 threads are damaged at the end, the reason for splitting a nut to chase the treads so the NEW nut
will go on without doing the same. Pic #4 cap is damaged & should be replaced. If a very good 9/16" x 18 thread can be cut & when a new nut
is torqued down & not pull the thread it will work (NOT the best option,) but if you don't have a axle to replace it with it will work. It's a more
common repair than some think it is. Or will admit to. In this case it is the only option to save that axle.
Craig.

No seal will work if the seal runs on the keyway. On both the modern aluminium type with lipped seal and the old felt washer type, the seal must run on a plain section of the axle. If, when the metal caps are installed to the correct depth on the axle housing, the seal is still over the keyway, something is amiss. Perhaps the axle needs to be changed out.

Whenever I am replacing a wheel on an axle, I run the nut up tight, pin it and go for a drive to let the wheel set on the taper. Then check the nut again and take up whatever you can before re-pinning the nut again. I leave the hubcap off until I can get no more uptake on the nut. Seeing the missing cap is the cue to check the nut.

I am not seeing crossed threads in the photos. One has two turns damaged on the outer end, but this is of no consequence as that portion of the thread will be in the castelations of the nut, if not completely passed over when the nut is up to tension. The other axle thread is worn, but does not appear crossed. If you can run it up to tension as I outlined above, it should hold, but may not in subsequent fittings. Again, anpther replacement axle may be called for. I do note pitting in the tapers on the axles, and a slight ridge along one keyway, indicating that a wheel on that axle may have been rocking loose on the key at one time.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

Can the axle be welded up and new 5/8 threads cut while the axle is on the car?

Also, while not ideal, how unsafe is downsizing to 9/16?

You need new axle shafts.

New axle shafts are of good quality and not expensive.

By the time you go to all of that trouble to try to save a 100 year old axle that’s been through who knows what, you could have replaced the axle with a new one.

JBog wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 13, 2024 6:52 pm

Can the axle be welded up and new 5/8 threads cut while the axle is on the car?

Also, while not ideal, how unsafe is downsizing to 9/16?

Not feasibly without removing.

& still tough to do still under the car (9/16) idea & weaker by design.
I WOULD NOT 1/2 a$$ a critical safety item.

If you read my post about rethreading WITH A GOOD ORIGINAL CASTLE NUT.
I think that's your best shot. I would do this trick, then put the wheel back on & tighten A GOOD ORIGINAL CASTLE NUT to full torque 80-100#. If it holds, you are ok. If it fails, you haven't lost anything.

Is it not clear that using a correct tight tolerance original CASTLE NUT is important?

https:www.youtube/playlist...5bcpNJQdDO5H8 There is also a company that sells a possible solution thirdgenauto.com 1928-48 Ford rear axle
special clamping nut for worn threads P/N A-4235-LN This is not just a model T issue. There is also a metric thread that is has been used but??
Craig.

That thread needs to hold a torque of 100 ft lbs. If the nut slips, it will not hold and no mater what you do, it will not stay tight. welding and re-threading, will change the temper of the steel axle and cause it to be weakened. The cost of a NEW axle is worth it.
Norm