MTFCA Forum

Is there another 6 Volt Battery the same size as the Group 1 Battery that has both terminals on the same size rather than on opposite sides?

James... Different terminal location and different dimensions would classify that as a group different than group number one battery size.. Post a picture of the battery you have in question

For what it’s worth I’ve looked all over Amazon for a 6 volt battery pretty close to a Group 1 size and didn’t see one. Maybe I missed them?

Most of the younger people don’t know the term ‘group’ for batteries anymore that was common several years ago. It’s still used by some auto stores but group won’t appear on a bettery. It’s all in I D numbers for the most part. The local Atwood’s farm and ranch store has 6 volt group 1 batteries but group 1 is no where to be found on the battery. TSC the same way.

Others may know which battery to use. Seems like there is an Optima that would fit but don’t know about the posts on the same side.

Not to hijack the thread, but I have a battery carrier from a Model T that mounts inside the frame rail just in front of the rear axle. Is the group 1 battery referred to by the OP the group that will fit this carrier.
I can measure the carrier and look up a fitment chart, but it may be common knowledge.

Also, an option for the OP might be to just measure your battery tray or carrier and head on down to WalMart or Sam's Club or a retailer that has all the batteries out on display and start measuring and looking at terminals. If it is a 6v battery, Tractor Supply is a good resource.

I have seen battery group size charts on the internet that give dimension, but do not know if they give terminal locations. I also thought available were top terminal lugs that screw into side terminal screw holes, making it not only atop terminal cable type battery, but would have them on the same facing front side. Might be another option.

Robert.... The Group 1 battery size is the standard for the Model T Ford. Due to the size of that battery carrier that Ford installed will not accept a six volt battery other than Group 1 size., using the standard Ford battery retaining clamps and bolts.

From another forum, not my verbage.

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tonyw
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Goulburn Australia
From what I see setting of the posts set diagonally is more for ease of manufacture. The negative plates that are connected in each cell are linked on 1 side and the positive on the other. When it comes to the external cell joint the plates are reversed so that they are connected in series. In a 3 cell battery the negative in 1 corner and positive in the diagonal. If it was a 4 cell battery both would be on the same side. To have the posts of a 3 cell on the same side means having the plates of 1 cell a special construction.

So, it might be difficult to find one with posts on the same side.

Not sure if this is group 1 or not. The she one, (dead) was in my car when I got it so I just picked up a new one.

It seems to be a 12v battery, it would have to be to have both terminals on the same side of the battery. Jim did not actually see his battery, hence the reason for his battery question. George

This is the BCI group battery size chart with the Group 1 size among others. And this is only one chart. There are several others also. https://www.jegs.com/Sizecharts/bcigroup.html

If there is a battery like that, “Auto Zone” would have it. They specialize in all types and sizes of batteries. I found a 6 volt battery with the terminals on the correct positions (negative on the near right and positive on the far left) at “Auto Zone” that fits perfectly in the metal Ford Script battery box underneath the trunk of my 1926 coupe. The battery box has the battery cable holes in the correct positions so, if you find a battery with the terminals on the same side, you will be unable to use a battery box. Jim Patrick

As requested, I have posted pictures of my Auto Zone Battery. The tag on the top says “Distributed by Best Parts Inc., Memphis TN 36103”

PS. The picture was taken upside down. The red cable is the negative ground, so with the picture inverted, the negative is on the near right.

Wow Jim, you found a battery that fits in the battery box? Please post picture, brand and details on the battery... THANKS in advance. Bob J.

Yes! It would be interesting to see what that battery was used for in their battery information.

The battery in the photo above is 6 volt. Count the caps. Each cap or cell is 2v. A 12v battery will have six filler caps. Maintainance free batteries with no round caps is your guess. One thing I learned about maintainance free batteries is that you can carefully pry off the large square top and fill with water if needed and tap back on.

vping wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:03 pm

Not sure if this is group 1 or not. The she one, (dead) was in my car when I got it so I just picked up a new one.

It is a Battery Group Size 1 battery --
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If one has a battery box like this - size matters
The box lid allows for a bit more height

I use the Auto Zone Group 1 6 volt. They usually have at least one in the store at one of the local stores in El Cajon. I have also ordered from Napa here in Alpine. and have to wait a few days for it to come in. I even bought one at an Auto Zone in Arizona on a tour we took there one year. I have been into Model T's for over 40 years and before that Model A's Both use the same battery except the ground on the Model A is Positive. Just turn the battery around for the A.
Norm

Another supporting issue is the copper diameter size of the battery cables. 6 Volt systems rely on usage of high amperage, not voltage. Minimum size of cables is 1/0. Using smaller diameter cables, such as on 12 volt systems, is just inviting irritating problems in use.

A little more information still confuses me!

The battery is a 6 Volt type the same size as a Group 1 or very close to that same size.

The terminals are opposite and not in line, but they are reverse from the Group 1 battery shown above.

That is why my friend told me he had to remove the negative ground to frame cable end to a different location.

The lights, ammeter, and generator all function normally.

Later this week, I will get a photo and more information on the Group Number and manufacturer.

Jim
Could it be that your friend has the battery turned incorrectly in the battery carrier? If it’s not turned correctly the posts would be in a position that would make the negative cable to short. Just a thought.

Six volt batteries have staggered terminals because of how the three cells are connected. I don’t see how they could be manufactured to have the terminals on the same side.

Another comment about group numbers.

If a battery is manufactured with its terminals reversed, manufacturers may opt to add a letter to the group number.

Example, early Ford Mustangs were equipped with group 24F batteries so the positive terminal was in a better position from potential grounds.

J1MGOLDEN wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 29, 2024 7:53 am

A little more information still confuses me!
The battery is a 6 Volt type the same size as a Group 1 or very close to that same size.
The terminals are opposite and not in line, but they are reverse from the Group 1 battery shown above.
That is why my friend told me he had to remove the negative ground to frame cable end to a different location.
The lights, ammeter, and generator all function normally.
Later this week, I will get a photo and more information on the Group Number and manufacturer.

I understand the terminals are on opposite corners not in line. Like you I am confused with them being reversed. The pictures below show possible locations , I moved them to keep the labels the same positions & fool the eye into seeing a difference. So you can match them to your friends battery or take a picture of his/hers.
#1 & #2 have the terminals in the same position. If you ignore the labels & rotate the battery 180 degrees you'll see that. --
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#3 & #4 have the terminals in the same position but reversed from #1 & #2 If you ignore the labels & rotate the battery 180 degrees you'll see that

Frank, great art work, but I have not seen the car, so I don't really know what the problem was, other than it was not a 12 volt battery with both terminals on the same side.

I should see the car this weekend.

James... When you do see the battery this weekend most likely it will be a six volt group 2 battery, that was used in the Model A Ford with positive ground

A good point!

James ,.... Did you see the car this past weekend ?..… Battery connection problem solved ?

No, he used his other T.

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:37 pm

vping wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:03 pm

Not sure if this is group 1 or not. The she one, (dead) was in my car when I got it so I just picked up a new one.

It is a Battery Group Size 1 battery
20240128_190110.jpg
--
--
If one has a battery box like this - size matters
The box lid allows for a bit more height
206269.jpg

Is there supposed to be a box and a cover? I just have an open frame.

Have you thought of using an Optima 6v battery? They do have the terminals at each of the ends. The batteries are narrow & I pad them out with a block of wood to fit the carrier.

Paul

vping wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 06, 2024 5:02 pm

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:37 pm

vping wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:03 pm

Not sure if this is group 1 or not. The she one, (dead) was in my car when I got it so I just picked up a new one.

It is a Battery Group Size 1 battery
20240128_190110.jpg
--
--
If one has a battery box like this - size matters
The box lid allows for a bit more height
206269.jpg

Is there supposed to be a box and a cover? I just have an open frame.

Yes to protect the battery from debris kicked up by tires when traveling.
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/1 ... 1307163712 --
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Different lids for how the box was made.

Paul, I was wondering when someone would suggest an Optima battery. I would never use anything else nowdays.

i did once use a full battery box with the service lid as shown. My T nearly burned down with an electrical fault. Without a battery isolation switch, to disconnect the battery you have to unload whatever you have on the floor in the back seat, grab some tools to undo the nuts and bolts holding down the box lid, and then unbolt a battery lead. That close shave sees my battery box lid on a shelf in my workshop, and a battery isolator in that T. I suspect the lid caused grief when working on cars, just as the engine side pans do, and may be the reason originals are so scarce today.

Allan from down under.

The Optima offers a number of advantages. They typically last a long time, much longer than a regular battery. They also are powerful, they claim 800 "cold cranking amps." I don't know about that but they do spin the motor over well even in cold weather. They also seem to hold their charge well. I have a '39 Cadillac that was stored in a remote garage and there was a time when I couldn't get to it for close to a year. When I finally was able to go fetch it, it fired right up even with extended cranking to get fuel back into the carbie. Lastly, there is no corrosion at the terminals or elsewhere.

The is a downside – these batteries were always high priced and have really jumped lately. The one in my '23 finally died after so many years service I can't even remember when it was installed. The replacement cost $240 including the ride to my door. Ouch!

Paul

Using the Ford specified negative or positive cable size, or even the next step larger cable size with any 6 Volt battery, with clean tightly installed terminals along with a Ford foot starter switch will ensure optimum performance for the starter. I also have a Optima red top 6 volt battery. Nuff said .

Information from the multiple Internet sites
What Are Cold Cranking Amps?
Cold-cranking amps measures the number of amps produced by a charged battery over 30 seconds at zero degrees Fahrenheit without dropping below 7.2 volts.

How Many Cold Cranking Amps Do I Need?
A good rule of thumb is that an engine will need about one amp per cubic inch of engine displacement.
Stock Model T engine spec says 177cu.in.

Do Cold Cranking Amps Really Matter?
Depends. Cold-cranking amps matter for those who need to start engines in climates where temperatures dip below freezing on a regular basis. Since cold can significantly impact the performance of batteries.
For batteries used in temperate or warm climates, you could ignore CCA and focus on other battery metrics like battery reserve capacity.

What is Reserve Capacity?
Reserve capacity is a measure of the time, in minutes, that a battery can run before needing to be recharged or replaced

Good info if your curious
Pros & Con's AGM Batteries vs Lead Acid batteries https://www.autonationmobileservice.com ... lead-acid/
Pros & Con's AGM Batteries vs Gel Mat Batteries https://www.bravabatteries.com/gel-vs-agm-batteries/
Pros & Con's Gel Batteries vs Lead Acid Batteries https://www.foxtronpowersolutions.com/g ... lead-acid/

Has anyone fitted the larger group 2 battery into the Model T battery carrier?... What modifications to the carrier had to be made? The red top battery will fit diagonally in the Model T carrier with added bracing needed.

Not sure why it would be needed
Length & height issues