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Ferrules
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 6:56 pm
by George House
I’ve changed the carburetor and manifold necessitating an additional 7.5” of gas line from the gas shut off valve. Not having additional .25” ferrules, I drove into town for other chores and stopped in a hardware store for a 23 cent brass ferrule. They were out !! So I bought a white plastic ferrule. Should I attempt to use this on my ‘14 or hold off for a brass ferrule ?
Re: Ferrules
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 7:23 pm
by TXGOAT2
I'd replace with brass ASAP.
Re: Ferrules
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:21 pm
by Humblej
A ferrule to splice the fuel line is not the way to go. I would suggest replacing the entire fuel line with one piece of steel automotive brake line and new felt packing at the connections.
Re: Ferrules
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:37 pm
by Norman Kling
I agree with Jeff Humble What I use instead of the felt packing is a piece of neoprene hose just big enough to fit inside the cap and slip over the pipe. Works great and can used over again if you need to remove the carburetor for some reason.
Norm
Re: Ferrules
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 10:36 am
by George House
Thanks guys. I guess I was incomplete in my description. I’m using a locally available gasoline on/off brass valve about 5” behind the carburetor and would use a ferrule on the 1/4” copper line inside of a modern brass hex nut that enters into the valve. I’m using an original hex nut with neoprene washer to fasten onto the original right angle elbow into the carb. I know, I know - steel brake lines are supposedly much better but I’ve been using copper-mostly original- since 1968 on all my T s with no issues. My main question can be boiled down to ‘are the plastic ferrules impervious to gasoline’? If the brain trust here thinks not, I’ll await the brass ferrule restocking at the local hardware store..
Re: Ferrules
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 11:18 am
by speedytinc
George House wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 10:36 am
Thanks guys. I guess I was incomplete in my description. I’m using a locally available gasoline on/off brass valve about 5” behind the carburetor and would use a ferrule on the 1/4” copper line inside of a modern brass hex nut that enters into the valve. I’m using an original hex nut with neoprene washer to fasten onto the original right angle elbow into the carb. I know, I know - steel brake lines are supposedly much better but I’ve been using copper-mostly original- since 1968 on all my T s with no issues. My main question can be boiled down to ‘are the plastic ferrules impervious to gasoline’? If the brain trust here thinks not, I’ll await the brass ferrule restocking at the local hardware store..
You are flirting with danger using copper & compression fittings.
I have seen failures twice on the same club members T. Stubborn guy that dosent learn.
The second time, We came out to our T's after lunch to see a 3-4 gallon gas puddle spreading under 2 cars.
Lucky no fire this time.
"Adequate" rarely is.
I am not naive enough to believe you will heed warnings, but maybe others reading this post will.
Re: Ferrules
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 3:40 pm
by Oldav8tor
A bit harsh, John....
Brass would be the way to go although some plastic ferrules are made of material that resists the components of modern fuels. worst case, you can order brass ferrules online. If your hardware is part of a national chain you can order online and have shipped to the store.
To hijack the conversation slightly, I use steel brake line for fuel lines after a bad experience with Nickel-Copper lines. This is what happened to the ends that were sealed with neoprene packing and original brass nuts. I discovered the problem when I noticed a very slight fuel leak. The deformation occurred at both the valve and the sediment bulb. Pure copper may be better. I've had a copper fuel line connecting an auxiliary tank to a main tank in my 1946 Airplane that has held up for 40 years. It has been exposed to vibration the like of which we never experience in a Model T.
Re: Ferrules
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 3:54 pm
by George House
Really !!.. Thank you for offering reasonable and considerate advice to my initial post Tim. I now believe these 1/4” plastic ferrules were meant for refrigerator water and ice dispensers and have achieved a leakless gas line from tank to carburetor using a brass ferrule.
Re: Ferrules
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:18 pm
by speedytinc
Oldav8tor wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 3:40 pm
A bit harsh, John....
Brass would be the way to go although some plastic ferrules are made of material that resists the components of modern fuels. worst case, you can order brass ferrules online. If your hardware is part of a national chain you can order online and have shipped to the store.
To hijack the conversation slightly, I use steel brake line for fuel lines after a bad experience with Nickel-Copper lines. This is what happened to the ends that were sealed with neoprene packing and original brass nuts. I discovered the problem when I noticed a very slight fuel leak. The deformation occurred at both the valve and the sediment bulb. Pure copper may be better. I've had a copper fuel line connecting an auxiliary tank to a main tank in my 1946 Airplane that has held up for 40 years. It has been exposed to vibration the like of which we never experience in a Model T.
IMG_2034sm.jpg
Dont mean to be harsh. As I stated, I have seen the catastrophic failure using a copper line with compression fittings twice to the same guy.
The line shears @ the compression ring edge. This must be the worst connection method.
Is your airplane fuel line also connected with compression ring fittings on copper? A tall flair nut fitting is a better way to go - no shear line.
The condition of a collapsed line blocking fuel flow doesnt bother me so much. Poor performance from the restriction is an easier lesson to learn than having a T or bunch of T's burn to the ground.
Re: Ferrules
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 5:22 pm
by TXGOAT2
I've seen a lot of copper line break at the ferrule or get necked down at the ferrule, constricting flow. The nuts sometimes split or flare out, too. I'd avoid using that type connection on anything automotive. They give enough trouble on things like ice makers and swamp coolers.
Re: Ferrules
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 5:53 pm
by Allan
For a brass compression ferrule to work, both sides of the fitting need to be machined to accept a compression ferrule. Otherwise, there will likely be leaks at the joint. For example, the brass elbow on a NH is not machined to provide crush on a compression ferrule. Neither is a standard packnut. While the packnut is machined, and may provide some crush, the as cast end of the elbow will not provide reliable crush or seal.
Allan from down under.
Re: Ferrules
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 6:54 pm
by George House
I totally agree Allan. And that’s how I’ve successfully proceeded in this small task..
j
Re: Ferrules
Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 6:16 pm
by Oldav8tor
Pat, the copper aircraft line does have flared ends. It simply drains fuel from a wing tank to a center tank. In my 78 year old airplane the fuel line is exposed from the valve on the wing tank to the valve on the center tank so I can see it while flying. The line from the main tank to the firewall fitting for the gascolator and from said gascolator to the carb is woven stainless steel. Brake lines are all steel with flared ends with stainless steel flex line anywhere there is going to be bending. Aircraft flares are 37° while most automotive flares are 45°.
In the airplane I'm building the fixed lines are all steel with flared ends. Again, flex line used where needed. As you can imagine, vibration is a big issue with light aircraft.
j