Starter locked up

[NY John T]

Hi All,
I have had my 27 Tudor for a few years and it's been working fine. Once this summer and twice this week, the starter locked up and would do nothing. Tuesday After working on the roof in about 45 deg. I hit the starter and the car almost started a couple of times (starter working). Wiring is not the problem. Then hit the starter button and nothing.
I tried rocking the car in neutral and the wheels were locked up. I pushed the car with my jeep and it unlocked the starter, and I was able to drive the car in to the garage.
Then yesterday, same thing. Starter worked driving the car out of the garage; then worked on the roof, and when it was time to put the car away, starter was locked up. This time, no pushing would break the starter free.
What could be the issue? Is it a bent shaft? If so, can it be fixed? Is it a damaged pinion? Is it a pinion tooth jammed against a ring gear tooth?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. What about cold/old oil on the clutch plates?
Thanks,
John

[RajoRacer]

I understand there were some reproduction Bendix drives years back that had an issue with the Acme thread or the pin & spring on the counterweight that would prevent the spring from disengaging the gear - maybe ???

[Dan Hatch]

6 or 12 volts? Has it ever been 12 volt?

[speedytinc]

"In neutral wheels are locked up." Thats a separate issue from a stuck bendix. This is very unusual IF you have the correct brake drum with the 6 shoes for the large disks. It is possible the drum is earlier with the disk contacts worn with severe notching. OR the shoes were left out. I have seen this & it locks the clutch up. However even with a locked clutch, when you hit the starter the car should move forward if the starter is in good condition.

Regarding the possible stuck bendix. Its easy(kinda) enough to pull the cover & look @ it. Remove it, check it over. With the bendix out, spin the starter & look for a bent shaft. You may be able to straighten it in place if the shaft is not bowed, but only bent @ one point. Look @ the bendix to determine its parentage & damage. Post a picture if necessary. The repop gear & counterweight is manufactured one piece.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

"I tried rocking the car in neutral ..."

Did you really mean to say you tried rocking the car in high gear?

[Norman Kling]

Try rocking the car in high gear. Usually if it is a stuck starter, it will unlock if pushed backward in high. If that doesn't work, next thing. Jack up one or both rear wheels. Then try the starter. If it spins the engine, your transmission high speed clutch is stuck. If it still won't spin, it could be a cracked drum which will lock up the entire engine and rear wheels.
If you have a starter which locks frequently, you might be able to use it if you turn the crank about a quarter turn from where it stops and then use the starter. The starter tends to hit the flywheel at one of two places because the engine stops between compression strokes. by turning the crank first to a different place the starter will work. In that case the problem could be the starter ring on the flywheel. If so, you have a big job in store because you will have to pull the engine and transmission and take off the magnets from the flywheel to replace the starter ring. Good winter project so the car will be ready by spring. Anyway, be sure, if you can, to find out what exactly is sticking by trouble shooting before you pull anything out. Good luck.
Norm

[speedytinc]

Norm reminds me of another 2 cases.
The ring gear was so chewed up that the teeth rounded over. This pounded out the bendix support bushing. (or the pounded bushing allowed the bendix to skip over the teeth.) The bendix would lock up on the flywheel @ the 2 sections that get the most wear. The owner has opted to remain a hand crank starting T.

In another case, a previous "mechanic" installed the ring gear backwards. The bendix wouldnt engage. Maybe why he got such a good deal on it?? The new owner removed the HH & hand ground ALL the teeth ramps. Imagine that! It did save the effort of pulling the engine & trans. Works fine now.

If, no, when you remove the bendix cover & bendix, check the ring gear teeth thru the hole as someone slowly turns the hand crank.

[Norman Kling]

If he ground the teeth, what happened to the particles? They would stick to the magnets. Must have been hard to clean it up!
Norm

[Allan]

I'd be checking the ring gear. If that is the problem, it is an easy fix as new ring gears and screws are available, but it means a lot of work. While you are at it, there may be other stuff worthy of attention.

Allan from down under.

[su8pack1]

I just had a similar problem with my 1925 Roadster, Lang's rebuilt the Bendix and now all works fine.

[speedytinc]

If he ground the teeth, what happened to the particles? They would stick to the magnets. Must have been hard to clean it up!
Norm

There were no magnets. He covered things with rags.

[NY John T]

Thanks for all the replies. It is still 6 volts, never been 12. I did rock the car in high gear back and forth. I'll try rocking it backward this time. Maybe this is the thing to get it freed up. Langs sounde like a good idea.
John

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Thanks for all the replies. It is still 6 volts, never been 12. I did rock the car in high gear back and forth. I'll try rocking it backward this time. Maybe this is the thing to get it freed up. Langs sounde like a good idea.
John

Remove the starter bendix cover and turn the bendix counter clockwise with a big plier. That should "wind" the bendix gear back and away from the ring gear. Once that's freed up, remove the bendix and repair/replace it.

[NY John T]

Thanks Jerry,
I'll do that to start. So folks, does it seem that the problem is the bendix locking up against the ring gear? I believe that's the problem. What part of the bendix would be causing the issue? Just trying to understand the mechanics of the bendix parts. Thanks,
John

[Moxie26]

Hey John... Recheck the mounting screws of that starter. Make sure they are all snug and tight. If there is looseness, the angle of mounting deflection does affect the contact of the starter against the flywheel and it will jam.

[RajoRacer]

Re-read my reply following your initial post.

[Art M]

When my starter mounting screws loosened, the starter became very noisy when starting. It was an easy fix. Just tightened the screws.

Once, I inadvertently tried to start the engine and forgot to retard the timing. The starter became locked. Unlocked it by turning the engine. Luckily there was nothing bent or damaged. Just remember to always retard the timing. Best do it as you are turning off the Ignition.

Art Mirtes

[Moxie26]

Hey John... Recheck the mounting screws of that starter. Make sure they are all snug and tight. If there is looseness, the angle of mounting deflection does affect the contact of the starter against the flywheel and it will jam.

Sorry Steve ... This was my first post and only post at the time on this topic...... Who were you really referring to? ..... " Re-read my reply following your initial post " ??

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Thanks Jerry,
I'll do that to start. So folks, does it seem that the problem is the bendix locking up against the ring gear? I believe that's the problem. What part of the bendix would be causing the issue? Just trying to understand the mechanics of the bendix parts. Thanks,
John

John,

You'll probably understand it all better after removing the bendix cover and having a look.

[RajoRacer]

I was attempting to explain to John - the original poster about some repro Bendix issues - I posted an answer to him at first.

[NY John T]

Thank you very much to all who contributed to my problem. I believe I have solved it. I took off the bendix cover and saw that the pinion gear was jammed against the hogs head and would not move.(see photo)

I had tried rocking the car backwards and forwards a little while in high gear. Then I remembered some talk of damaging things more.
So I had to literally pry the bendix out off the starter shaft. I'll next try straightening up the shaft and getting a new bendix if the parts are too far gone. I'm just wondering if the bushings are damaged. We'll see in the next phase.
Thanks again for your help.
John

[RajoRacer]

Boy - I'd say the starter shaft is bent - the spring indicates the car has been started either on 12 volts or the spark advanced - Bendix & starter need to be removed for a thorough inspection !

[Moxie26]

John, the Bendix spring is shot. You need a new one........ After removing the Bendix, step on the starter button and observe the armature shaft, if it wobbles excessively it will have to be straightened. In my experience, there will all always be a very slight, very slight wobble in the armature shaft, minus the Bendix on testing. You can check out a website, www.modeltstarters.com, for quality rebuilds and Jeff can answer your questions and be a further help .

[Norman Kling]

If that starter shaft is actually bent that much, I would recommend a rebuilt starter. It is nearly impossible to get the shaft completely straight with the typical home tools. Two things can cause the starter to lock up. One would be leaving the parking brake forward when trying to start and the engine won't turn because in high gear. Worse is to try to start with spark advanced. Also using 12 volts with a starter wound for 6 volts causes it to hit the flywheel very hard.
Anyway, I would advise looking at the ring gear on the flywheel and check the teeth all the way around the flywheel to be sure they are not worn. Each tooth should be complete and a bevel edge where the starter bendix meets the flywheel. If that is good, replace with a rebuilt starter. If you are using a 12 volt battery get a starter wound for 12 volts. If you are still using 6 volts, get a standard T starter.
Norm

[Moxie26]

Any progress with your starter problem?.. Happy Thanksgiving!

[NY John T]

Hi All,
I wanted to follow-up on the problem I was having with the starter in my 27 Tudor. The car had been working fine for a couple of years until in November the starter locked up and wouldn't turn at all. I got suggestions from a lot of people including Mr. David Woods. He said he could do several things that sounded right to me: replace the bushings, and bearing in the brush cap, straighten the starter shaft, line bore, and test everything. I sent the starter to David and he repaired and sent me back my starter that works perfectly. He had tested it for torque as well as amperage. In fact, it now works like it was powered by a 12 volt battery.
I would highly recommend David Woods if your starter needs overhauling or just a checkup. His prices were more than fair and he had a very quick turnaround,
I think it's important for us to recommend people who do good in this hobby. David can be reached at DWTWORKS@gmail.com. He's in Williamston, MI and his number is 517-927-9232

[DanTreace]

John

Have to also recommend David Woods, he does early coils, generators along with starters. Had built this test panel for starters, complete with torque test.

If you do Facebook, his page is Williamston T Works. Has some good info, pics, and videos on his FB page.


Screen shot of the Starter Tester he built to check, and inspect re-builds he does. Nice guy.

FDD2412D-1217-4851-A907-386F76B73559_4_5005_c.jpeg (70.28 KiB) Viewed 2760 times

[Moxie26]

Words of a satisfied customer is absolutely priceless.

[NY John T]

Indeed. Credit where credit is due!