MTFCA Forum

Just curious if anyone out there has put a brass radiator on a 1919 Coupe. Is it even possible? I know it is not correct but I think it would look really neat and I have a perfect body to do it with. Let me know your thoughts.

Adam

Why??? Putting an early radiator on a later car is poissible, but why would you WANT to do this???

Why are there more 15's on the road today than were built in 15?

Adam, a friend of mine did that to his '18 centerdoor. It required fitting a '15-'16 hood former to his wood firewall and making a pair of hood shelves .As for why anyone woud do that, its because, as Adam stated and my friend actualy did, they like like the way it looks. Why paint a T red, or yellow, or green? Same reason. Chrome plate a radiator shell? Same reason. Go for it Adam.

John, you can thank the HCCA for that, as you had to have a "pre-1916" vehicle to belong, and to do so, a LOT of post 15 cars got "converted, the T especially as it was the easiest to do so.

I'm guilty of that. My dad (bless his soul) was a HCCA National President, but the car he used for his affiliation (and the one i had later) was an December 1915 T, meaning, yes, it was a 1916 T, but because it was pre 1916, well...

So yeah, I'm one of those "radicals" that say if your car was a 1916 (or 1919, or whatever) then you should CELEBRATE that. While I loved the HCCA thing growing up, I realize later that maybe they were wrong... that it doesn't matter if your car is before a certain calendar bracket as determined in 1953, but that you're preserving HISTORY. I just HAD to have a pre-16 car to keep the "family HCCA legacy" alive, but as I'm getting older, I'm realizing that, yeah, while I'd LOVE to have an early (say, 1912 or before) car or bike, it's not some arbitrary calendar date, but that we keep as many of these historical vehicles around for future generations.

I too have thought about it when I had my huckster. You would need the 1915/16 firewall, hood support, hood, hood shelfs and radiator. 99.9% of the people would not know if it was correct or not.

I have no problems with that. I seen something today that bothered me on Facebook. Someone took a perfectly good roadster pick up a complete car looks like it was running and cut it up and made a hot rod out of it and then was bragging about it that curls my hair, in the meantime, I have a 1915 chassis which has a I believe 1910 wooden body on it that was made by a manufacture in the teens it has a body sticker on it saying the manufactures name so sometimes I call it a 10. Sometimes I call little 15 it probably really is a 1915 commercial canopy pick up truck. It's like riding on the stage coach it's completely original never been painted never been restored. It's got dirt on it over 100 years old and it ran perfectly up to about two months ago. I pulled the head off of it and it needs a valve light job. I wish I could post a picture, but my computer in this website don't agree , but she sure is neat, I also have a 1913 touring beautiful car all on top but somebody put a fortune into the engine and drivetrain many years ago. I was told it would do 80. I've had it up to 65 and it runs fine little scary some of you have seen it on the Texas tea party tours the last three.

That HCCA makes little sense to me.

I can't see any Model T as being a "horseless carriage". The 1st car he made called Model A, that I can see. Like an Olds Model R or Frank Duryea's car.

They looked like someone took the horse off and added either gas power, electric or steam power.

Susanne wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 20, 2024 10:58 am

John, you can thank the HCCA for that, as you had to have a "pre-1916" vehicle to belong, and to do so, a LOT of post 15 cars got "converted, the T especially as it was the easiest to do so.

I'm guilty of that. My dad (bless his soul) was a HCCA National President, but the car he used for his affiliation (and the one i had later) was an December 1915 T, meaning, yes, it was a 1916 T, but because it was pre 1916, well...

So yeah, I'm one of those "radicals" that say if your car was a 1916 (or 1919, or whatever) then you should CELEBRATE that. While I loved the HCCA thing growing up, I realize later that maybe they were wrong... that it doesn't matter if your car is before a certain calendar bracket as determined in 1953, but that you're preserving HISTORY. I just HAD to have a pre-16 car to keep the "family HCCA legacy" alive, but as I'm getting older, I'm realizing that, yeah, while I'd LOVE to have an early (say, 1912 or before) car or bike, it's not some arbitrary calendar date, but that we keep as many of these historical vehicles around for future generations.

Don't be too hard on the HCCA. They had to draw a line somewhere, and wanting to be THE club to preserve the "earliest" cars, they fought for about forty years over how and where to draw that line. A lot of people, both in and out of the club think they made a few bad decisions leading to their current rule (including me). A lot of people think that they should expand their cutoff to include more people.
A lot of people, including ME, feel that although I/we may not entirely agree with past decisions, the line was drawn and should remain where it is (this for a number of important reasons).
The "earliest" cars need an advocate club, and for better or worse, at this time, in this country, it is the HCCA.
Since I really like really early automobiles, I really like the HCCA. Although I do think they should have made the cutoff a bit earlier.

And Susanne, I do totally agree that it should be about preserving historic cars (and other things!) as what they are or were! Not remaking them to fit a pigeonhole.

I think a 1919 model T Ford coupe is a wonderful car!

Thanks for all the input.

At least a couple of people in Australia have converted the later coupe to earlier looking cars. Depending on how far you want to go, at the very least you need to fit the 1915/16 hood former, maybe change the fenders to the earlier 1916 style, get a new hood and wooden clash strip are you are good to go. I have attached a picture of a later Coupe which was made to look like a 1914 Model. Nicely done and a very unique T,but not correct. Good luck with your project.

Tsk…Tsk…Butcher job. What a shame. Pre ‘23 coupes are fairly rare.

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:34 pm

Don't be too hard on the HCCA. They had to draw a line somewhere, and wanting to be THE club to preserve the "earliest" cars, they fought for about forty years over how and where to draw that line. A lot of people, both in and out of the club think they made a few bad decisions leading to their current rule (including me). A lot of people think that they should expand their cutoff to include more people.
A lot of people, including ME, feel that although I/we may not entirely agree with past decisions, the line was drawn and should remain where it is (this for a number of important reasons).
The "earliest" cars need an advocate club, and for better or worse, at this time, in this country, it is the HCCA.
Since I really like really early automobiles, I really like the HCCA. Although I do think they should have made the cutoff a bit earlier.

And Susanne, I do totally agree that it should be about preserving historic cars (and other things!) as what they are or were! Not remaking them to fit a pigeonhole.

I think a 1919 model T Ford coupe is a wonderful car!

I'm not hard on them at all - our family was active with them for years. Heck, dad was a past national president, and we went on a number of national tours thanks to them. Good times!

Actually, I liked the line as it was drawn - if the car was manufactured on or before 31 December 1915, it was "legal", eg, entitled the member to full membership and the ability to run for office in the national club. Since our car was (by the motor number) a December 15 car (a day before T # 1,000,000) it was fine. Afterwards, he had other "pre-16" cars, including a 12 Commercial roadster, a 15 Dodge touring, and the bones for a 14. (There was also a variance granted for motorcycles up to either IIRC 1923 or 1929, but I honestly can't remember that far back to confirm or deny my memory is correct on that)...

I also remember different discussions and different standards. The local club which we were involved with (SFHCCA) would allow cars up to 1942, which opened the door to saving a LOT of nice cars. The National was more restrictive, but hey, that was OK as they allowed the local clubs leniency from that.

Currently I'm trying to find a pre-16 something or the other - Over here a lot of the early cars went to scrap drives for various and sundry wars to end all wars... I have no doubt something will shake up eventually.

Resale value of a half and half T? Well it is a T but which one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing would be "butchered" to do what the OP suggests. It's all just "bolt-on" parts. If the next owner wants to correct it, they can just bolt-on whatever they like. The one thing I would really hope for in all of this, however, would be HONESTY. That means, title it as a 1919 and eventually sell it as a 1919. Might also be nice to shelve for later re-attachment, the 1919 parts that have been removed.

If the change ultimately reduces the resale value, the only one to suffer that will be the seller.

Thanks for all the responses. The coupe I have is just a bare body, no frame, running gear, front end, etc. I would never take a complete car apart to do this to.

It's my belief that the brass Era for cars is considered to have ended in 1915 and that is why the HCCA chose 1915 as the cutoff time.

I think that the model t is about the only 1916 car that has brass on it, which is the radiator. Just change your 1916 black headlight rims to brass and the car visually to most people is a 15.

Art Mirtes

Art M wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:45 pm

It's my belief that the brass Era for cars is considered to have ended in 1915 and that is why the HCCA chose 1915 as the cutoff time.

I think that the model t is about the only 1916 car that has brass on it, which is the radiator. Just change your 1916 black headlight rims to brass and the car visually to most people is a 15.

Art Mirtes

Part of the problem always was that there never was a real defined "brass era". Many of the really early cars around 1900 were trimmed in brightwork of nickel plating! Not polished brass. Some of the many early steam cars nearly half the chassis was nickel plated, including the wheels. The first year of the Curved Dash Oldsmobile had a lot of nickel plating.
The big three collector car clubs, the AACA, the VMCCA, and the HCCA, all were officially formed in the mid to late 1930s. They all began without a defined collectable status, and therefore inclusive of almost anything old by 1930's standards. Even the HCCA early activities often included cars of the early to mid 1920s which then were just over ten years old! I have seen a number of photographs of HCCA tours of the late 1930s and late 1940s, and noted a good number of mostly remarkable automobiles for the late 1910s and early 1920s in them. 1920s Mercer, Stutz, Pierce Arrow and Packards appeared to be quite popular in the early club days.
In the late 1940s, the big three national clubs began to define the eras they wished to focus on. Both AACA and VMCCA settled on a sort of sliding scale that continuously advanced in some fashion, while the HCCA wanted to stay focused on the earliest cars. "Pre'15" had become a sort of catch-all phrase for the HCCA, so that became their focus point. The problem became how does one define "pre" and "1915"?????? The club fought over that definition for about forty years!
For better or worse, the rule should remain basically how it is. A lot of people were hurt during the fighting over semantics, and the club suffered because of it. The hobby would not be helped by going back to fighting over minutia. The earliest cars need a club that focusses on the earliest cars, and here and now the HCCA is it.

I have often commented on this forum about how little the hobbyists in the 1950s and 1960s knew about model T history! It was actually believed by many people that 1915 was the final year for the brass radiator on the model T! So that was used to justify the 1915 cutoff for the HCCA. We of course now know that all true MODEL year 1916 Fords had the brass radiator, and that the black shell didn't begin until the 1917 fiscal year.

Susanne wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:41 am

I'm not hard on them at all - our family was active with them for years. Heck, dad was a past national president, and we went on a number of national tours thanks to them. Good times!

Actually, I liked the line as it was drawn - if the car was manufactured on or before 31 December 1915, it was "legal", eg, entitled the member to full membership and the ability to run for office in the national club. Since our car was (by the motor number) a December 15 car (a day before T # 1,000,000) it was fine. Afterwards, he had other "pre-16" cars, including a 12 Commercial roadster, a 15 Dodge touring, and the bones for a 14. (There was also a variance granted for motorcycles up to either IIRC 1923 or 1929, but I honestly can't remember that far back to confirm or deny my memory is correct on that)...

I also remember different discussions and different standards. The local club which we were involved with (SFHCCA) would allow cars up to 1942, which opened the door to saving a LOT of nice cars. The National was more restrictive, but hey, that was OK as they allowed the local clubs leniency from that.

Currently I'm trying to find a pre-16 something or the other - Over here a lot of the early cars went to scrap drives for various and sundry wars to end all wars... I have no doubt something will shake up eventually.

I really wish that you could have taken your father's 1915 with you. But reality isn't always nice to us. In the end, it is your memories of your father that are most important. He contributed a lot to the hobby as a whole!
I have never had a problem with people using December 1915 cars on HCCA tours, and know several people that do have and use December 1915 cars. I actually have a December 13, 1915 serial number engine block I have considered using myself if the right project came along.
I hope you find and get a suitable "Horseless Carriage" soon! I think driving an antique automobile around Italy and Europe would be wonderful! Using a hundred year old car to see two thousand year old history would be fantastic!

The antique automobile hobby is quite different in England and Europe. They break down the eras differently, are much more strict about provenance, and oddly sometimes less strict about authenticity. One thing I love about the hobby over there (that I can only read about, but do enjoy reading about it), is that they really drive the really early stuff a lot more than do American collectors. Even in the HCCA, cars earlier than 1908 are rarely driven more than a few miles. There, cars built in 1904 or earlier are driven on significant tours often! Not just the hundreds of 1904 or earlier cars on the famous London to Brighton Run every year, but they do routine "Creepy Crawly" tours other places throughout the year.

Good luck finding an early car you can enjoy over there, and I hope you will share with us some of your adventures, hunting for, getting, and driving one over there!

Forget it! Leave the poor car alone, and be happy with it. If you wish to have a 1915 Coupelet, go find one. They show up once in a while.

You mentioned it’s just the body in nice condition. It begs the question if the frame and the most of it is still in the area where you got it.