MTFCA Forum

I hope this question does not spark any issues about looking in the archives. A search did not give me the answers I was looking for.

Starter and charging issues resolved, the T started and ran great. Since it has not run in many years, I decided to let it run for awhile and warm up and it did great. I shut it down and about 10 minutes later, it does not want to start. I pulled the plugs, it's just a little rich (mostly#1), so I cleaned and put back in. It fired right up. Ran for a few seconds, stalled and wouldn't start. Cleaned plugs again, which looked fine, and the same thing keeps happening.

The plugs are Motorcraft F11 gapped to .024". When I got the car they were at around .034"

Also note that there are 5 extra sets of plugs with the car that came in the parts boxes. All are used, 2 sets of F11, 2 sets of champion 25 and 1 set of champion with brass tops. 2 piece deals where you take apart and change the insulator.

Also to note, the car has a distributor and coil.

I gave it one more chance by putting plugs in the ultrasonic cleaner (maybe stupid idea) and it will not turn over. I'm done for the night.

Questions:
What plugs should be using with this set up?
What plug gap should I use?

Vince

.024 to .028 should be fine for the gap. I'd use the old Champion plugs if they're in good shape.

You may have an issue with your ignition switch or wiring. Or points, or condenser, or coil. I would not use suppression type ignition cables on a T. The copper core type are best on older systems.

Choking the carburetor while cranking the engine should cause gasoline to drip out. If not, there may be a clogged filter or main jet.

Running the engine may have loosened dirt in the fuel system. I'd check for adequate fuel delivery and and a good spark. I'd put at least 5 gallons of fresh gasoline in the tank, and use a fully charged battery.

See pic. What kind of wires are these and how do I check condenser. Coil checked out ok. Dizzy, points, cap...all installed before I got the car and all were 100% new.

Old champion plugs with brass tops, 1 insulator cracked. I'll try the Champion 25s I have.

Choking carb, check. Gas is coming out and it ran great for a while.

Gas tank was removed, cleaned, cleaned and cleaned. Gas lines, cleaned. Carb disassembled, cleaned. Fresh gas and it ran great for a while.

I checked the rotor and cap and still in new condition.

Did you check the points condition & setting?

Did you do the old tried & true screwdriver from spark plug to the head test for spark to verify distributor is putting out spark?

I see a possibility of an issue with the condenser wire being in contact with the high voltage wires and having high voltage leak from the plug/coil wires to the open/exposed terminal connector, which could damage the condenser. Also possible poor connection of the terminals as well

"How to test distributor condenser" in your chosen search engine, will provide videos to test yours.

It's almost certainly something minor.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:16 pm

Did you check the points condition & setting?

Good question. The points were clean, new never used. What the gap should be is not known to me. Recommendations?

checking for spark is the 1st and easiest step.

RVA23T wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:38 pm

Did you do the old tried & true screwdriver from spark plug to the head test for spark to verify distributor is putting out spark?

I see a possibility of an issue with the condenser wire being in contact with the high voltage wires and having high voltage leak from the plug/coil wires to the open/exposed terminal connector, which could damage the condenser. Also possible poor connection of the terminals as well

"How to test distributor condenser" in your chosen search engine, will provide videos to test yours.
condwireisssue.png

Good catch. This is on my list to change. Also how the PO has it mounted is suspect. It's on the outside of the distributor and wires going into the distributor and loose and wrapped in electrical tape. I need to address this next.
I also need to figure out what the part number of the condenser, cap and rotor are so I can get spares. Any clues how I can find this out?

Appears to be an older Bill Rader distributor set-up - uses a Bosch 009. Does it utilize a "bell crank" assembly for spark advance ? Meaning 2 spark
rods & a bell crank ?


Point gap 018 - .020 - with a distributor ignition, I run my plugs at .032 - .035.

My 26 T came from the PO with a distributor that looks very similar to the one in your picture. The housing on mine is stamped with the VW insignia followed by a 9 digit number followed by a C and was used on '60's &'70's Beetles. I matched tune up parts with NAPA and came up with cap # EP274, points # CS313 rotor # EP278 condenser # EP 259. I set points at .022. Worked good for me.

Bosch distributers have a resistor in the rotor for noise suppression, they are prone to failure. They can be a pain to diagnose because the appear
to be good when testing then fail when starting or after running for a while. If your car has a Bosch dizzy it is a good idea to have a extra one.
Rotors can be hard to find @ the local auto parts place. There also is several different ones that look like they interchange but don't.
Craig.

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:10 am

Appears to be an older Bill Rader distributor set-up - uses a Bosch 009. Does it utilize a "bell crank" assembly for spark advance ? Meaning 2 spark
rods & a bell crank ?


Point gap 018 - .020 - with a distributor ignition, I run my plugs at .032 - .035.

Is this a bell crank, 2 rods?

Yes it is Vincent - looks like a Rader unit.

Cool. I also had a little time to do some research and Bosch 009 distributor replacement parts are a plenty on the interwebs.

Hi Vincent,
A word of caution Make sure you get parts for the correct Bosch Dizzy. My Reeder dizzy uses a vacuum advance Bosch unit often referred to as a
205 or 006 they are distinguished by a long slot ( usually covered by a small piece of aluminum held in place by screws.) 009's usually have a oval
plug in the side. Use the numbers stamped on the housing for parts. The two dizzies do not use the same parts unless someone has swapped parts around. The vacuum dizzy uses two piece points, different condenser, rotor & cap the cap & rotor are different heights & swapping the caps will
create a poor result. I picked up a Reeder dizzy because of this confusion that left the previous owner stranded because he had 009 parts from his
Texas T dizzy for his other car in the tool box. Jbugs.com has a good online ID page that is very helpful( with pics )
Craig.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be double checking the next chance I get.

RVA23T wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:50 am

checking for spark is the 1st and easiest step.

Asking again, have you checked for spark to even know if you need to get more parts?

I understand your point now. Initially I thought, "..of course I have spark, it ran"

You're asking if I have spark NOW, that it doesn't start!. .

I'll definitely be checking that this weekend if I have time.

Correct is there spark now.

I'd look over the wiring very carefully. The primary wire in the picture looks skinny to me. Quality, full-gauge wiring with quality terminals will give best performance and reliability. Worn switches will make for weak ignition performance and increase the probability of intermittent performance.

So I definitely have spark.

I redid some the wiring. Inside of the cap, was a female lead from the points. Through the hole in the side of the distributor body was a wire from the capacitor and another lead from the coil. These bare wires were pushed into the female connector, smashed closed and electrical tape covering them. You can see evidence of the glue residue from the tape in the pic. I straightened out the terminal.

The lead from the capacitor and from the coil was sectioned together in pieces. This has also been resolved.

I then fabricated an insulator block with male spade terminals and put the proper female ends on them. Just so I wouldn't have wires going into the hole. I'll been 3D printing a new piece now that I know this works.

I tried to restart and still nothing. I'm going to see if I have fuel issues next. It was good but I might have some stickiness with the float or needle or both.

Needle and seat replaced and it fired right up. Carb flooded with gas though and not sure why. When it ran because I had no gas issues.. Then the Needle stuck. Now new needle and it's acting like the float has sunk.

This is the float I have. I had it floating in a bowl of mineral spirits. I'll try and figure it out this week.

Get a small sauce pan on the stove a little better than 1/2 full & turn on the stove - set the float in the water and hold it down with a wooden spoon just before it stars to boil & watch for bubbles.

Did you reset your float level after replacing the needle & seat? Just going by what I'm seeing in your pic, it appears that the little tab that pushes on the needle is bent down kind of far. If that's true, it would cause your flooding problem. Roughly speaking, the needle should seat when the top edge of the float sits parallel with the carb body. Carefully bend the tab to suit.

You repeatedly mention cleaning the plugs. Of what exactly? Excess fuel or soot or what?

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 18, 2024 6:36 am

Did you reset your float level after replacing the needle & seat? Just going by what I'm seeing in your pic, it appears that the little tab that pushes on the needle is bent down kind of far. If that's true, it would cause your flooding problem. Roughly speaking, the needle should seat when the top edge of the float sits parallel with the carb body. Carefully bend the tab to suit.

I think I'm guilty of this. When I posted the pic, I noticed the tab. I'll be checking that later for certain.

Charlie B in N.J. wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:11 am

You repeatedly mention cleaning the plugs. Of what exactly? Excess fuel or soot or what?

Cleaned of anything on them so that I had a clear baseline. I can definitely eliminate the plugs and spark. I'm getting fuel, just too much which will be addressed later.

As this began with spark plugs, I'll post about those. I have used Autolite 3095 before and they were good (mostly) for about a year. They are the least expensive Model T plugs, generally priced between $2.50 and $5.00. The classic OEM spark plug for Model T is Champion X. If you don't mind spending $60 a set, you can buy them new. I prefer buying originals for $2 to $5 each at swap meets. I have used both these kinds of plugs, and they are generally fine, though a hundred-year-old X may take some refurbishing before it's ready to use. Those are the plugs I have used most, so I'm most familiar with them. I have also used other originals (Splitdorf, Edison, etc.) While we're at it I should also mention that any plug can fail so it's handy to have a good plug tester to see if a plug will fire under pressure. Laying the plugs out on top of the engine is not a real test.

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG95.html



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Yes, a good spark plug checker tests the spark quality under cylinder pressure. I have found some duds that look really good, but were in fact firing weak when installed. I used my restored Champion quite often to root out questionable plugs. It has thread adapters to test all size plugs.

Would love one of those. Nice to hang on the wall and if it did different sized plugs, very handy too.

Currently in the car are Champion 25. I have another set of those as a spare but one of the 4 is a 2 piece style and has a different tip.
I also have a set of Champion X. Also 2 piece style. One has broken porcelain. I'd like to find a new porcelain and then clean up and try to use. Anyone have a spare porcelain?
Feel free to educate me on what these 2 piece plugs are called.

Are the nuts on the top of the plug backing out with vibration? Just something quick to check.

Haven't had it running long enough to determine that yet. It's something for me to think about once I do get it on the road.

If they are take-apart plugs, also check to make sure that the thin nut that clamps the porcelain to the shell doesn't loosen with vibration (yes, it has happened to me before). Keep it tight, but not so tight that you crack the porcelain. If you do crack the porcelain, you'll get a misfire that manifests itself only under heavy engine load (yes, I've had that happen too).

I kind of like new Bosch model 14 mm plugs with adapters. Seem to last for years and hardly ever foul. Bosch 4003 are my favorite! They get down closer to the top of the piston.

Are the adapters to reduce the size?

14mm plug adaptors cam be made from old spark plugs ( the crimped ones not the ones you can take apart ) They look correct. They can also
be used to repair over sized or damaged plug threads. Craig.

vping wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:04 pm

Are the adapters to reduce the size?

They are to allow you to use the smaller diameter 14mm plugs in a head that's threaded for 1/2" pipe thread.

Vincent, your T is telling you something. After not running for years, you fire her up and she responds well. Then you turn her off again! Can you imagine how that might feel? When she does fire up again, you had better treat her right. There' no point getting her all ecited and then turning her off again. Let her run on down the road.

Allan from down under.

Oh I got "him" fired up again and he's a happy chap. The reason it's a him? Well, if anyone has followed my posts, the PO store muriatic acid under the car and really buggered up one quadrant of the car. I decided to call my T, Murray as in murrayatic acid! Lol!

Vincent, Muriel is even closer!
Allan from down under.

Allan wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 8:58 pm

Vincent, Muriel is even closer!
Allan from down under.

Love it!! Muriel it is.