MTFCA Forum

The Ford Model T has an ignition system that creates much discussion.

As early as 1901 German automobiles were using a compact magneto for their automobiles. Compact magnetos were known in use of telephones.

So why did Ford insist on a large alternator to power his coils. Why not a magneto?

As early as 1915 Ford claimed a patent for a conventional magneto, yet kept the flywheel design up to the end of the "T".

Possibility?
The flywheel was there & the technology favored heavier flywheels to keep small engines running and prevent stalling (hit or miss)
A heavier flywheel will make the RPMs build slower, which makes the power smoother, easier to control, and increases traction, but does not reduce horse power or torque.

Looking over early sales literature, the advantages of the flywheel magneto get a fair amount of coverage. Early “unit” magnetos were fairly troublesome and undependable.
Once Ford attained mass production on an unprecedented scale, fiddling with design changes would have meant a huge loss of momentum. The simplicity and dependability of the model T was not affected by advances that may have appeared to make it obsolete until well into the 20’s.
Much has been said about Henry’s stubborn resistance to change, but the fact is, he was right!
At least until competition began to affect sales after 1925.

High tension insulation failures caused issues, and hand cranked engines needed an impulse magneto drive to start easily. The large diameter of the Ford magneto obviated any need of an impulse drive, and the low maximum voltage was well within the limits of what available insulation could dependably handle. The Ford magneto developed enough low voltage current to allow for a rudimentary electric lighting system, too. The Ford system did not rely on a single point/condenser set or a single induction coil to keep the car running. The car could keep going with a dead coil or a problem with any of the four point sets, whereas typical high tension magnetos relied on a single point/condenser set and a single induction coil. All early magnetos were subject to weakened magnets.

The spread of better roads had a lot to do with obsoleting the Model T, along with heavier, faster traffic. The Model A built on the T design, with double the power and braking with only about 1/3 more weight. A Model A could hold its own on bad roads much like a T, and yet it could run the speed limit on the best roads available and keep up with city traffic. Ford did not totally abandon the basic Model T layout until 1949.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 04, 2024 3:23 pm

The spread of better roads had a lot to do with obsoleting the Model T, along with heavier, faster traffic. The Model A built on the T design, with double the power and braking with only about 1/3 more weight. A Model A could hold its own on bad roads much like a T, and yet it could run the speed limit on the best roads available and keep up with city traffic. Ford did not totally abandon the basic Model T layout until 1949.

The 1910 Model T weighed in at 1200 lbs.

And yet there were much more expensive cars weighing in at 2750 plus or minus and would travel at 75 mph if the roads were in good shape.

And they used the magneto. Not a Ford style magneto.

The car could keep going with a dead coil...

...or spark plug, or a wonky timer. When I limped into Joplin on three cylinders a couple of years ago I appreciated the Ford system.

The bolt on external magneto wasn't all puppies & roses either. As they became troublesome with age, several manufactures offered direct bolt in place of original magnetos - distributor/coil units to run on a battery. kw, Delco & Mallory to name a few.
Familiar story? Bolt on distributors to replace the model T's ignition system. & still available & popular today.

Ford hated paying Patent Royalties.
Ron Patterson

I find it quite easy to hand crank start my 27 roadster on magneto!

Later Ts weighed more than earlier ones, but had the same or less power. The 1928 Ford doubled the HP of the T, and could run at higher RPM. Weight tables of various body styles of the Model and the Model A are available.

Ford's low tension magneto is what made the T the Universal Car, high quality, keen design of the powerplant, and low cost to own and service.


Best told in Ford's literature of the day. Compare the # of parts in the Ford low tension magneto to the costly, mechanical complex and service needing(oil) gear driven or belt driven high tension magneto of the day.

Ron Patterson wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 04, 2024 5:42 pm

Ford hated paying Patent Royalties.
Ron Patterson

Agreed. That is why he used the planetary transmission as well.

I think that the bigger mystery is why Ford didn't move to a normal distributor and coil when they added the 6v system in 1919. The tremblers and 'magneto' must have been very expensive in comparison.

Ford was already set up to make them, and paid no royalty or licensing fees. Ford had there own sources of wood and iron and probably other materials. It's a very versatile system and well suited to the times and conditions of use. Parts were available all over the world, too. Even today, a common cause of a no-start situation is the battery. The Ford system did not rely on a battery.

Chris Barker wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 05, 2024 4:38 pm

I think that the bigger mystery is why Ford didn't move to a normal distributor and coil when they added the 6v system in 1919. The tremblers and 'magneto' must have been very expensive in comparison.

Economy of scale to keep the magneto on the flywheel and the 4 separate coils in the coil box.

Cost reason to make change to dizzy and coil, redesign of firewall to remove coil box holes, redesign of flywheel for missing weight of the magnets, fitting dizzy to cam, coil location, wiring, etc. etc, not to mention added replacement parts to the supply chain of a world of dealers and garages.

Finally, no mystery for Mr Ford to keep the trembler ignition of the flywheel magneto, he was obstinate at dual source of powering ignition so customer would not be stuck on the road from storage battery depletion or single coil and point failure, the magneto/trembler coils added that measure. And also why the hand crank was still on the front, even with the new fangled electric starter in 1919, customer was fitted with dual options!

"Cost reason to make change to dizzy and coil, redesign of firewall to remove coil box holes, redesign of flywheel for missing weight of the magnets, fitting dizzy to cam, coil location, wiring, etc. etc, not to mention added replacement parts to the supply chain of a world of dealers and garages."


The panel (wood or metal) would have been manufactured, and the holes drilled/punched after. Certainly there was a saving by limiting the number of holes in the firewall?

As for the crank, there were a number of pre 1970's cars and other vehicles with hand cranks. I remember 1960s land rovers with hand cranks.

Been Here Before wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 07, 2024 11:11 am

. . . i remember 1960s land rovers with hand cranks.

A hand-crank “option” remained a feature of a number of vehicles for many years. With the adoption of multiple cylinders and compression ratios over 5:1.

I question whether anyone relied on a hnd crank in the event of a starter motor failure. The hand crank was useful for tune-ups and setting initial timing.

Ford cars had provision for hand-cranking through 1948. Pickups through 1952 or 1953.

Rich P. Bingham wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 07, 2024 1:26 pm

I question whether anyone relied on a hnd crank in the event of a starter motor failure. The hand crank was useful for tune-ups and setting initial timing.

Many times, recently helped a new T owner get his grandfathers T running to move it to his garage. The starter motor failed to turn, even with charged up 6v storage battery. He is also an electrician, so meter tested that starter which had a dead short.

So by hand cranking we got the T started on Bat, rough running, but after needed carb fuel adjustment we ran it down the road on Mag, and he was happy to have it running after 5 years. Later I assisted in replacement with re built starter motor. Without that hand crank under the radiator we would had to push or tow the T to start.

My ‘pologies for being unclear, Dan. The thread drifted into vestigial cranks making it to the 1960’s. I meant to say that the 6s, 8s and 12s (!) that came after the Model T, with much higher compression ratios were probably seldom, if ever, hand cranked to start.

A Model T ?? They were MADE to be hand cranked ! Pre 1919, we doan’ need no steenkin’ ‘lectric starter !!!

First antique cars on which I was allowed to work as a teenager were neighbor's Rolls Royce Silver Ghosts. Hand crank, BUT, not cranked as we crank our T's. The technique was to prime the engine via the crank, then stop the crank with a cylinder just past TDC. Turn on battery ignition and start on compression, a "free start", every time with the RR quality. I suspect the same technique was used on the larger engines referenced in posts above.

Oh, The mystery of hand cranking to start an internal combustion engine!

There is a trick to starting any internal combustion engine from a single cylinder weed eater to a multi cylinder.

You need fuel and spark and compression will help.

Prime the engine ad with a quick jerk of the starter handle the engine will usually start the first time.

Back track. Henry's magneto alternator generating system was not fail proof. Why, to provide electrical current to the coils the early Fords has a provision to be able to use/attach dry cells to by pass the magneto and have power direct to the coils.

Generally a "real" magneto will provide ignition instantly ... if set up properly.

Dry cells or a wet battery were probably a great help in starting in cold weather with single weight oil of uncertain quality and the low gravity gasoline of uncertain quality commonly available in the T era.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:16 pm

Dry cells or a wet battery were probably a great help in starting in cold weather with single weight oil of uncertain quality and the low gravity gasoline of uncertain quality commonly available in the T era.

Gasoline in america became heaver after 1916. After 1916 the quality was reduced by the introduction of a selected amount of paraffin (kerosene). Pre1916 gasoline was a better fuel than post 1916. Note changes in fuel induction and changes in carburetors and economizer systems. Pre 1916 Model T Fords had provisions for the drycells to assist in starting coils that -hot or cold - could be sluggish and the on board magneto of Ford Design could not do an adequate job in electrifying the buzzer coil.

The flywheel magneto was unique to the market in 1908 and could have been touted as an advantage. Outboard high tension magnetos were certainly a standard thing in the T era, but when they go out, they go out. The T ignition system is surprisingly resilient, and often you can limp home on three cylinders and a dead battery if the magneto is still healthy.

The magneto also served to give weight to the flywheel to smooth out the running of the engine and served as an oil pump. The Model A separated the flywheel, dry clutch and transmission from the crankcase oil. It also had an oil pump with shaft to drive both distributor and oil from the camshaft. So although under the hood it looked similar to the T it was really quite different. I have had 13 Model A's in the past and I could get it up to 70 MPH for short distances such as passing another car, but not good to drive constantly over about 55 MPH. Ford put a foot throttle on the A but also left the hand throttle and spark lever so a driver only needed to learn to shift a 3 speed stick (non synchronized) to change from T to A. The early V8 had synchronized second and third gears but had a tendency to pop out of gear when going down in second for compression. And also could slip into low and second at the same time and locked up wherever the car was when that happened. I got locked up in the middle of a rail crossing and learned never shift gears on a railroad track! A cop came along with a motorcycle and somehow was able to rub his tire on my bumper and slide my wheels enough to get off the track! Whew! Ford kept the flat head until 1948 after Henry died.
Norm

1953 was last year for the flathead 8. If Henry had lived another ten years, so would the flathead.
The flathead six was retired in 1951.

I doubt that the flathead would have lasted another ten years if Henry Ford had as well. It is possible that the six cylinder flatheads might have made it for a bit longer then they did, but without an OHV V8, Ford would not have been competitive with Chevrolet and Plymouth/Dodge.























It also would have been