MTFCA Forum

They were all black.
A disturbutor is "more reliable".
Rims were cad plated.

Believing something for many years doesn't make it true.

Interesting argument about "distributors" being more reliable.
There should be no argument that a distributor ignition system is less complicated, have fewer points of failure and less expensive to maintain.
-- --
No much difference in a commutator and distributor head. Cap & rotor --
More wiring to contend with --

BUT the latest technology is a modernization of the old.

Either system can have a failure. Dont we all carry extra coils & a timer?? If you run a dizzy, the same thinking applies. Carry an extra coil, points, CONDENSOR & cap.
Getting a timer/coil system to work accurately & trouble free for maximum performance takes a lot of work/attention to detail. ECCT coil tuning has brought the 2 into parity. (or atleast the possibility of parity) IMHO
I learned this all with in the last 10 years trying to get proper ignition performance with coils out of respect for my 14.
Previous all my T's ran dizzies.
I almost gave up & put on a clip on distributor, but stuck with the process urged on by another much smarter than I.
I blueprinted old newday timers for accurate, trouble free timing.
The final piece of the puzzle was going from rebuilt, HCCT tuned coils to an ECCT tune.
Made a very noticeable performance increase. I'm sold.
Not saying my other T's are going back to stock coil/timer systems, but my 14 will not get a dizzy as long as I own it.

Truth. On the 2009 Ocean-to-Ocean tour i took keen interest in the dizzy vs coils performance since about half of the 55 cars ran a dizzy. What i noticed was that on the off days the dizzy guys spent as much or more time doing work on their ignition systems as the coil guys. Please add the boxes for floorboards and the hand klaxons from the factory to your list of myths that wont die to your list. Many thanks.

A model T coil fails and you have 3 more to get you to a good place to swap it out, or if you have a spare within arm’s reach, you might even be able to effect a repair without stopping. A coil on a distributor fails, and you’re dead where you stand until you replace it.

mbowen wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 28, 2024 11:43 am

A model T coil fails and you have 3 more to get you to a good place to swap it out, or if you have a spare within arm’s reach, you might even be able to effect a repair without stopping. A coil on a distributor fails, and you’re dead where you stand until you replace it.

Shall we count the number of forum threads on buzz coil issues vs modern coil or timer issues or the number of different timers.One doesn't restore a modern coil, just buy another. Carry an extra modern coil for $20 or buzz coil worth $250?

How many times have you replaced the coil or condenser in any/all of your modern cars (or lawn mowers/tractors) in the last 30 years out of necessity?
I think I used to do the condenser with points back in the day because it was part of the kit.

RE: spare coils

It's pretty easy to carry not one but four extra Model T coils. Also, a spare timer.

Years ago, there was an article in Vintage Ford whereby Milt Webb recorded all of the mechanical issues experienced by a group of Model T Ford owners during a long distance tour (it may have been the 2003/Ford centennial cross country tour). The results showed that the cars that were stock or closest to stock had the least amount of troubles and, perhaps, could be considered the most reliable.

Erik Johnson wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 28, 2024 12:12 pm

. . . the cars that were stock or closest to stock had the least amount of troubles and, perhaps, could be considered the most reliable.

Add this to the superstitions :

“If I add a (fill in the blank) or retro-fit a modern (fill in the blank) my T will be better / more reliable”

If you have a full flow needle and seat from Scott Conger there is no need to "back up the hill" due to fuel starvation on a stock carb.

If the flow volume was really not a problem, then I would suspect the original cheapness of a T owner not willing to fork out for a full tank of fuel!

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 28, 2024 11:51 am

How many times have you replaced the coil or condenser in any/all of your modern cars (or lawn mowers/tractors) in the last 30 years out of necessity?

I helped a friend replace a coil on his distributor-equipped touring car a couple of weeks ago on the MTFCI tour. It failed suddenly and completely; the engine quit like you’d turned off the switch. He was carrying a spare for a reason (just like the rest of us).

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 28, 2024 11:51 am

How many times have you replaced the coil or condenser in any/all of your modern cars (or lawn mowers/tractors) in the last 30 years out of necessity?

In 40+ years of driving distributor equipped Model T's, I can only recall 1 time that I had to replace a coil. No condensers. I stopped at an intersection somewhere just left of the middle of nowhere and she quit. I had a spare and in 15 minutes was on my way.

I'm not getting into the coils vs. distributor debate. I'm just answering Frank's question.

Getting back on-topic, a couple of my favorite superstitions, or maybe wive's tales, is the notion that the timing gear can be installed 180 degrees off location, and that the timing gears can "skip a tooth". I'll admit that they can skip many teeth, when stripped, but not skip a tooth then keep running, albeit poorly.

I like the stock T system for a number of reasons, including its reliability. Add a New Day timer or I Timer for low maintenance if you like. As for trouble with distributor systems, I've found the coil/point type to be to be extremely reliable on a great variety of vehicles, but I have had 2 or 3 coils go bad in many years of driving. I wonder if some issues with retrofit distributor systems may be related to mis-matched parts, lack of a proper resistor, or poorly-regulated supply voltage. Most modern coils are made to run with resistance type plug cables. I don't know if running a modern coil with copper wire high tension cables might cause problems. Coils and condensers need to be compatible for best point life, and an incorrect condenser might affect the coil's longevity. (?)

I've put 10,500 miles on my car in the last five years. During that time, I've had two coils fail which I quickly replaced from the spares under my back seat and was on my way. One was a profound failure, the other was later fixed with a new set of contacts. I previously had all my coils rebuilt by an expert in the field.

I run a New Day timer (from Tip-Top). In my car a brush is good for 5-6 thousand miles and the cap for a lot more. I carry a spare cap and brush but have never needed to use them. I clean and check the timer a couple of times a year and that seems to be enough.

My previous restoration was a 1952 Willys Army Jeep. It left me by the side of the road twice due to ignition problems. Once the points just came apart. In both cases, the tow strap came out and the Jeep was hauled back home. Fortunately the failures were only a few miles from my house.

I have yet to find either a distributor or a raised timer without extremely worn drive gears on the camshaft and the distributor shaft. The fit/mesh of these is what you get. There is no means of adjustment to set the mesh that I know of. This problem is compounded with an off centre mounted front timing cover.

Allan from down under.

Why is it that the cars from 2000 on have the same style of ignition the Model T has?

keen25 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:29 am

Why is it that the cars from 2000 on have the same style of ignition the Model T has?

You mean vibrating induction coils and a mechanical timer?

I live dangerously. I don't carry any spare parts when I take the T out. I figure that it has lasted 97 years and still runs well. What I do carry is my cell phone and my triple A card. In 12 years I have used them twice, both for contaminated fuel.

Stock model T I always only carry a timer and roller because I'm not one that checks regularly the condition of my timer and roller and so sooner or later it's going to give out and I'm prepared.

Ed aka #4

What I do carry is my cell phone and my triple A card.

I have found that if I never leave home without my running board cans it can save me considerable wasted time.

If you leave a car battery on a concrete floor, it will draw the charge out of it."

John Codman wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 31, 2024 12:53 pm

If you leave a car battery on a concrete floor, it will draw the charge out of it."

Now John, that is NOT a superstition, it is gospel true. I know, because when I took the battery out of my Ford last fall and set it on the concrete garage floor, when I went to put it back in this spring, it was DEAD !!

Ethanol blended gas is a relatively new idea & Henry would never have used it.

Ethanol’s first use was to power an engine in 1826, and in 1876, Nicolaus Otto, the inventor of the modern four-cycle internal combustion engine, used ethanol to power an early engine. Ethanol also was used as a lighting fuel in the 1850s, but its use curtailed when it was taxed as liquor to help pay for the Civil War. Ethanol use as a fuel continued after the tax was repealed, and fueled Henry Ford’s Model T in 1908. The first ethanol blended with gasoline for use as an octane booster occurred in the 1920s and 1930s, and was in high demand during World War II because of fuel shortages.

"You'll go blind"

No? Wrong place?

Whoever wrote the early Ford T owner's manuals seemed to think the cars ran on gasoline.

Leaving an auto battery on a concrete floor has been a no-no as long as I remember. Maybe there is an explanation for it. I always try to charge a battery in the car or if it’s taken out I put it on a board or a or some where that’s not touching the concrete floor. You won’t see batteries on the floor at parts stores or farm stores but off the floor in a rack or shelving. Or at least the ones I go to.
There are all kinds of explanations that it will loose a charge and just as many say that it won’t. It’s a habit for me to get it off the floor and I always do. So take your pick!!

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 31, 2024 2:19 pm

"You'll go blind"

No? Wrong place?

Now that's funny!!!

The Ford user's manual of 1907, Models N and R, advised new owners to put "gasoline" in the "gasoline tank" of their new Ford cars.

I was told that car batteries would lose their charge when left on concrete back when battery cases were made of hard rubber. I don't think they've been hard rubber for 50 years.....

Greg, you are correct.

It is true that Ethanol was added to gasoline as an Octane booster, but there is a problem with doing that. Ethanol has a significantly lower BTU content then gasoline. Adding 10% Ethanol (as mandated by the Federal Government) does raise the anti-knock rating by a bit, but it also slightly harms fuel economy. I did the math some years ago and I'm not going to do it again, but 10% Ethanol reduces fuel economy in the 2-3% range.

Want to really kiss fuel economy goodbye?
Try E-85. There's a good reason the price is so low.

The sad part about it is that everybody is doing it now Steve.
My Toyota Tundra 1794 Ed. Gets 21mpg on real gas. 630 miles for a 30 gallon tank! At most gas stations in NC i only get about 496 miles on the fuel here. They water it down with ethanol and benzene!

John kuehn wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 31, 2024 3:39 pm

Leaving an auto battery on a concrete floor has been a no-no as long as I remember. Maybe there is an explanation for it. I always try to charge a battery in the car or if it’s taken out I put it on a board or a or some where that’s not touching the concrete floor. You won’t see batteries on the floor at parts stores or farm stores but off the floor in a rack or shelving. Or at least the ones I go to.
There are all kinds of explanations that it will loose a charge and just as many say that it won’t. It’s a habit for me to get it off the floor and I always do. So take your pick!!

The only thing that I can think of is that lead-acid storage batteries are temperature sensitive. Someone probably put a battery on a concrete floor which normally would be the coldest place in the shop. it was probably near a door and exposed to a cold, winter draft. If the battery wasn't fully charged to begin with, the cold temperature might have lowered the battery's state of charge to the point that it would not start it's car's engine. An urban legend was born.

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 03, 2024 12:38 am

Want to really kiss fuel economy goodbye?
Try E-85. There's a good reason the price is so low.

Back in my racing days, I was briefly involved with what we called "cut downs"; basically sprint cars. We ran alcohol as a fuel because two gallons of Alcohol hold more BTU's then one gallon of gasoline. The problem is that the ideal air fuel mixture for ethanol is about 7:1, whereas the proper Gasoline air/fuel ratio is about 14.7:1. Running on Alcohol (Ethanol) gave more power then gasoline, but the car used a bit more then twice as much of it. I never liked the Ethanol because it burns so clean that if it catches fire you will feel the heat before you see any flames, which are close to invisible.

michaelb2296 wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 04, 2024 1:00 pm

The sad part about it is that everybody is doing it now Steve.
My Toyota Tundra 1794 Ed. Gets 21mpg on real gas. 630 miles for a 30 gallon tank! At most gas stations in NC i only get about 496 miles on the fuel here. They water it down with ethanol and benzene!

"They" do it to meet the requirements of the 1990 Clean Air Act (RFG Fuel) and the Renewable Fuel Standard set forth in the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007. June 20 2023 (Reuters) - That administration plans to increase the amount of biofuels that oil refiners must blend into the nation's fuel mix over the next three years,but the plan includes lower mandates for corn-based ethanol than it had initially proposed.

There are conflicting opinions about Ethanol being added to gasoline for cars and light trucks. One school of thought is that the requirement was a sop to grain farmers. At present, there are more acres dedicated to the production of Ethanol then any other agricultural grain product. Another camp believes that even if the requirement were dropped, petroleum producers would continue to blend it into gasoline because from the auto manufacturer's point of view it is an octane booster, allowing higher compression and a wider ignition timing program.

Ethanol in gasoline is a fertile field for “superstition” ever since the oil embargo of ‘74 (?)

One aspect that persists is that “growing your own fuel” was going to make is independent of foreign oil. Problem is, the net gain is pitiful. Proponents tend to forget that it takes fiel to grow it, harvest it, process it, and transport it.