MTFCA Forum

A few months ago I traded my 25 year old Dodge in for a 4 year old Ford Escape, one with only 3 cylinders. Little did I know I would soon have another 3 cylinder Ford, this time the 1914 Touring.

After trying many things, going back to basics, switching things around, testing this and prodding that I finally made some progress. A suggestion off this board from a knowledgeable person mentioned I could feel the coils buzz even if my hearing no longer allows me to hear them. In pursuing this, I had one coil only in the box in the No. 1 position. The bus bar with the switch on had already tested hot with both the meter & the light bulb (a 12v bulb with two wires soldered to it) but not with the 4 coils installed. While testing this single coil I got voltage at the No. 1 low tension post!!! A test at the timer showed voltage there too.

Well, this is progress! Reinstalling the rest of the coils showed no voltage in any of them. Drat!

Next the coils came back out and each position was tested individually, They all had voltage with just one coil installed. Next more coils were tried and with three all got voltage at the respective low tension posts. When the No. 2 coil was installed they ALL lost voltage at those posts. Very curious!

With the No. 2 coil again removed I tried an engine start. I got a pop, then a cough and after several more attempts, it ran. Yes, it vibrated but never had it sounded so sweet to my ears. I ran the motor until it warmed up then killed it and tried it again it again with the switch in the MAG position instead of BAT. It started again and ran fine for a 3 cylinder Model T.

I had to partially insert the No. 2 coil to keep the others from vibrating out of position.

So - what did I learn here?

1. The wiring is OK.
2. The E-timer is OK.
3. The coil box & switch are OK on their own.
4. The coils are OK on their own.
5. The coilbox/switch assembly are NOT OK with 4 coils installed.

The only thing I can think that is wrong is one of the switch mounting screws stands proud of the coil box and protrudes into the area where the No. 2 coil lives. The plastic coils slide in and out fine but one of the wooden coils out of the '23 would not slide into place. I can't imagine this could be important as the coils are plastic and should not be conducting any electricity.

I learned a lot here but still have a mystery to solve. I'm thinking of ordering one of the plastic replacement switch bodies and transfering my old parts to it. That should eliminate that issue even is it is not causing the problem. It will at least allow the instalation of the coils out of the '23 to see if that solves the issue.

Any other suggestions?

I am very grateful for all the help on this list, by message & by phone call. I couldn't have gotten this far with out it.

These pictures were taken with the engine roaring is wonderful 3 cylinder song.

Paul

Just a suggestion BUT I would lose those plastic coils - they have a notorious reputation for being "not good & not consistent." Contact Ron Patterson for a set of good coils and try the exercise once again.

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:38 pm

Just a suggestion BUT I would lose those plastic coils - they have a notorious reputation for being "not good & not consistent." Contact Ron Patterson for a set of good coils and try the exercise once again.

Ditto on this, you will think you traded cars when you plug in a set of coils that he has fixed

He has already changed out other wood coils, but they dont fit into the box. The "rebuilt" coil box has an issue not fitting coils.
Might be the first next thing to fix.

Didn't catch the swap out John - I agree - he better address that first ! Don't believe he's going to have much luck with those plastic P.'s O.S.

The wooden coils did fit apart from the one that was stopped by the protruding screw in the No. 2 slot. I will back that screw out and see what the result is. Also, I now know of a way to test the switch to see if that screw has pushed the coils into distorting the box/switch assembly.

I had never heard of any problems with the plastic coil box kits before. I had had one of the Fun Projects ones in the '23 for 15 years or so without issues.

As to the plastic coils themselves, they were working before and three of them are working now. I expect the fourth will as well once this contact mystery is sorted. I would certainly like a set of good well adjusted wooden ones eventually. Then it would be nice to go to an iTimer so I can listen to the music of the clattering coils in this car.

Paul

I had a Massey Ferguson 135 gas 3 banger tractor engine that ran very smooth. Thought it was a four cylinder until a plug wire got pulled off mowing high weed's. I went to put the plug wire back on the distributor cap and noticed it only had three wire holes. I now have a MF 240 with a three cylinder Perkins diesel but it runs rough compared to the Perkins gas three banger. But the power steering is why I went diesel to keep from breaking my arm when I hit a gopher hole mowing. Trivia question. Who is the Prince of Darkness. Answer. Lucas. As related by a late MG restorer friend.

Novice wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 05, 2024 1:55 am

I had a Massey Ferguson 135 gas 3 banger tractor engine that ran very smooth.

O.T. Jim, I have an MF135 too with the 3-cylinder Perkins gas engine. The bore, stroke and most of the short block is the same as the Perkins diesel. It runs smoothly since installing modern plug wires.

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:38 pm

Just a suggestion BUT I would lose those plastic coils - they have a notorious reputation for being "not good & not consistent." Contact Ron Patterson for a set of good coils and try the exercise once again.

I agree.

Once again, thanks to everyone for their suggestions. A couple of notes for those who were not following the previous three threads dealing with this ignition failure:

1. This car always started and ran before it failed to start a few weeks ago. I did a lot of work on it and wanted a test drive. None of the work was connected in anyway with the motor, ignition or wiring. The plastic coils were in it when I bought it & I have not messed with them.

2. This car has an E-Timer which makes trouble shooting somewhat different from standard procedures. Happily, Mike Kosser has a short list of tests to run to help sort things.

Last night I set out to see what I could discover with some helpful guidance provided by one of my pals in the Orange County Model T Club. He explained how to make a test light bulb which adds a "load" to the circuit and how to use that bulb to test the switch itself.

The first thing was to remove the brass cover off of the switch and back the screw out. This is the screw on the right side in the picture. Now the screw is no longer protruding into the coil box space.

Next, the battery was connected and the switch on to the BAT position with all four coils were inserted. The test bulb wires were connected to the manifold as a ground and the other wire to the various low tension posts, 1-4. The bulb did not light. The test was repeated with the meter, no voltage. Yes, the BAT post both lit the bulb & got 6+ v on the meter.

After that various combinations of coils in slots were tried. In all cases, the bulb lit unless there was a coil in the No.2 slot. When that happened, they ALL died and would not light the bulb. That No. 2 slot seemed toxic!

It made sense to investigate this so all coils were removed and only one coil was inserted in that toxic position. It lit the bulb!

Another coil was inserted in the No4 position. The bulb lit for both of them. The No. 1 slot was filled and the bulb still lit on all three. With much trepidation, I inserted the last coil in the No. 3 position fully expecting them all to die again. To my great joy, that did not happen, all four positions lit the bulb! I felt like jumping for joy.

While the coils were all working it seemed a good idea to try to start the engine. It coughed and hiccuped a few times but did catch and run and was smoother that the previous three cylinder session. The wire to the cutout was disconnected so I did not dare to run the motor for more than a few minutes. Who knows what electrical mischief the genny might get up to being turned without that wire being connected.

There it is right now. I will connect the wire and run it some more later after work. We shall see what additional adventures are in store.

Paul

For those who did not follow the previous threads about this mystery, here are a few pics of the rebuilt coil box.

Paul

Paul, I would check the power wire and connection at the bottom bus bar if your problem continues. With the power lost happening after the fourth coil is installed it would point to a bad connection or wire at the bottom bus bar.

Last night after work I reconnected the wire from the cut out and started the motor again. It ran on all four cylinders and I let it run until it was good & hot, steaming a bit and when shut off gurgling a bit. Whatever the issue is/was with the four coils in the box together is it not bothering anything now. I'm going to finish the wiring and try running it again.

I can't help but think that there still might be a problem lurking in the coil box someplace. Lawrence on another of these threads mentioned that he had trouble with the old contact clips loosing tension as they "work hardened" over the years. While these seem pretty springy and they certainly cleaned up nicely with a wire wheel on the Dremel & contact cleaner, it is possible that there may be an issue here.

The last post on this thread mentioned the possibility that the power wire on the bus bar might have an issue. Possibly so but it is a new wire with a new connector and I even soldered the top to ensure contact. I ordered a new switch body and will want to pull the whole coil box out to work on the switch. The bus bar wire can be checked then.

Right now we'll just have to see what happens next.

Paul

I prefer to r-use the original contacts - the new repros seem have have the "tension" issues.

I have heard this too and the ones installed here were the ones removed from the old box. The seemed in good condition.

Paul

Paul, Would it be that you have installed the mounting screws of the lower bus bar up side down, because if the screws are too long they would hold up the coils up from the spring contacts of the busbar giving you no meter and or test light reading and an open circuit situation with your ignition coils....n

Those of you who suspected that the trouble lay in the coil box were correct. Even though I was being careful, I messed it up somehow. My suspect solder job (I don't do a solder joint every decade . . .) might have been at fault or possibly it was a plastic burr under the busbar that allowed a rocking motion.

My buddy from the Orange County Club spend better than an hour on the phone with me leading me through the troubleshooting procedures which isolated the trouble. A light was rigged so that with the system hot & the switch ON, a bulb from one of the low tension posts to a ground would light when a coil was in the same position as the light. Pulling the coils in and out revealed that the order of insertion mattered.

A screwdriver pushed down near the center solder joint would kill the light. A clue!

The coil box was removed and taken apart. The two end screws stood proud of the nut making the coil stick up a bit further than it needed to. The solder was removed and the whole thing reassembled. The end screws were leveled with a cutoff wheel. The whole coil box was reassembled and given a test on the bench with the meter. Pushing with the screwdriver no longer made any difference.

Just a note on this plastic coil box kit – the bottom was a full third thicker than the old wooden one. If the front was also too thick it might explain why those coils are such a tight fit. Overall, I am not impressed to the quality of this kit. It sure isn't like the Fun Projects one I installed in the '23 years ago.

Once installed in the car, the coil box was tested with the light bulb on all four positions and the all lit singaly & with all four coils installed. The car started and ran well with the switch in either MAG or BAT position. I was very happy with this and was ready to get back to the other work I started two months ago until I noticed the the freeze plug leaking rusty water right on top of the carbie.

I tested both the E-Timer that was my spare and the one that came with the car. Both ran fine, there was no issue with either. I will never know what caused the car not to start weeks ago. So many things were changed that the problem could have been anywhere.

The manifolds came off and new freeze plugs were driven in but that is another story . . .

Paul

Glad to hear you got the coil box straightened out! I really messed up a rebuild on a closed cab TT’s coil box a while back…I assumed since it was mounted on the firewall inside the cab it took the old style guts. WRONG, 26-27 guts. The old style studs wouldn’t line up with the holes cut in the firewall.

I would not have known that either. So much for "they're all the same!"

Paul

Amen Paul! C’mon Henry!