MTFCA Forum

I am restoirng my 14 Runabout and everywhere I look I can only find traces of dark blue paint on the body. There is no indication of it ever being black except the fenders and running boards and aprons. This is an October 14 built car. Is it possible that this car was originally dark blue? I have looked at several old posts and discussion and most agree that only Touring cars built early in 1914 were blue.

Does it have rounded corner doors, typical of 14, or does it have square cornered doors, typical of 13? It could be it was built during the transition from 13 to 14 model.

Art Ebeling wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:24 am

I am restoirng my 14 Runabout and everywhere I look I can only find traces of dark blue paint on the body. There is no indication of it ever being black except the fenders and running boards and aprons. This is an October 14 built car. Is it possible that this car was originally dark blue? I have looked at several old posts and discussion and most agree that only Touring cars built early in 1914 were blue.

Art, I am going to be of no help to you other than my interest has been piqued with this. Does the body have original wood? The same with original upholstery?? No chance the car could have been repainted in the 1950s or 60s when restored??? Why I am even asking this is often my customers will tell me their car has the original paint hidden in obscure parts but when we actually begin the disassembly process, the true original paint color becomes obvious.

Art Ebeling wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:24 am

I am restoirng my 14 Runabout and everywhere I look I can only find traces of dark blue paint on the body. There is no indication of it ever being black except the fenders and running boards and aprons. This is an October 14 built car. Is it possible that this car was originally dark blue? I have looked at several old posts and discussion and most agree that only Touring cars built early in 1914 were blue.

From the MTFCA encyclopedia (each year also describes body differences) so click on the links and see the details

for 1913 https://www.mtfca.com/model_t_encyclopedia/1913/
MODEL YEAR DATES: September 1912 to August 1913 approx.
COLORS: Initially all cars were painted a very dark blue, with either blue or black fenders. Black became the standard color early in the year. Delivery cars phased out and could be ordered in several colors. Delivery Car production ended before calendar 1913.

for 1914 https://www.mtfca.com/model_t_encyclopedia/1914/
MODEL YEAR DATES: August 1913 to January 1915 approx.
COLORS: All cars were painted black, with black fenders. (Factory cost books indicate that touring bodies were painted blue until October, 1914.)

MAJOR MODEL YEAR FEATURES: Steel panels over wood framework (standard until 1926). Touring was similar in style to the 1913 but doors were smaller, inset in the side panels, and had rounded bottom corners, setting the style for all future Model T’s. Door handles were now inside the doors. Body panels now folded over the top edge, making the separate cover piece used in the 1913 bodies unnecessary.
The windshield now folded to the rear with its support straps bent to clear.
The Runabout was similar in style to the Touring. Rear turtle now had rounded corners.
Chassis frame now had longer rear cross-member, eliminating the forged body brackets used earlier.
The metal coil box, made by Ford, but using coils of K-W design, was standard.

FENDERS: Front: Same as later 1913, with embossed bead on the apron, and across the wide part of the front fender. Had no front bill at first but the bill was reinstated before the end of the year. Rear: Similar in style to the front. Support irons were now attached to the body framing, extending out the side of the body, through a hole in the apron of the fender, and were clamped to a single plate under the fender.

SPLASH APRON: Same as 1913. Fenders and aprons were painted black.

RUNNING BOARDS: Pressed steel with embossed diamond pattern. The Ford script now ran across the board. “Made in USA” appeared on all boards.

HOOD: Aluminum, with no louvers. Hinges were separate from the panels, and riveted in place. Hold-down clamps had two “ears” and were of forged steel. Handles were forged steel.

DASHBOARD (Firewall): Wood, with flat brass edge trim. Board now mated with the body side panels.

CHASSIS: Same as later 1913 with the longer rear cross member. Painted black.

STEERING COLUMN ASSEMBLY: The major portion of “1914” models used the same column assembly as on the 1913 cars. The change to the “one piece” gear box apparently came late in the year, or in early 1915, with some overlap where both types were used in production. Brass-plated spark and throttle levers, with flattened metal ends. Wheel is 15” outside diameter, wood, and painted black. The wheel spider was iron and painted black.

FRONT AXLE: Same as the 1913 cars.

REAR AXLE: Cast center section, same as 1913, and with the axle tubes flared and riveted to it. This axle then continued into early 1915.

DRIVESHAFT HOUSING: Pinion bearing spool was a casting and was held by studs and nuts, the studs being enclosed (not visible) in the housing. Integral front housing for universal joint assembly replaced the “two-piece” style (apparently during late 1913).

REAR RADIUS AND BRAKE RODS: Brake rods had forged ends and the support brackets were of the type which go out and wrap down around the rods. Rear radius rods no longer had the forged forks. The fork is created by splitting the rod and flattening it.

WHEELS: Used 30 by 3 tires in front; 30 by 3-1/2 in the rear. Original tires had no tread, but tread began to appear on the rear tires. Hub flanges were 6 inches in diameter. Front wheels used ball bearings. Hub caps had “Ford” in script letters. “Made in USA” on all caps.

SPRINGS: Tapered-leaf, front and rear. “Figure eight” style shackles.

RADIATOR: Supplied by Ford with the standard Ford script. “Made in USA” on all radiators, under the Ford script.

ENGINE: Closed valve type as in 1913. Serial number above the water inlet. Press-in welch plugs replaced pipe plugs to seal the water jacket on the right side of the engine. Flat-top pistons were replaced with the beveled edge type.

ENGINE PAN: Typical “three dip” with narrow front “snout.”

OIL FILLER CAP: The mushroom-shaped cap, of brass, with six flutes and the Ford script appeared on all models. “Made in USA” added. Steel replaced brass early in the year.

ENGINE CRANK: Aluminum formed handle, painted black, initially. The steel sleeve assembled type began to be used during the early part of the year.

ENGINE FAN: Driven by a leather belt from a pulley at the front of the engine. The fan hub was brass (bronze), with the blades riveted in place. Adjustment was by means of a bolt/nut arrangement now located on the right side of the front plate and bearing against a boss on the mounting end of the fan bracket.

MANIFOLDS: Exhaust pipe flared at the manifold and was held in place with the brass nut but with no packing. Intake was aluminum, then cast iron in the same pattern, and finally the standard-design (less curved than the 1911-1913 types).

CARBURETORS: Kingston “four ball” or Holley Model G.

CARBURETOR STOVE: Several designs, all of which rose vertically at the rear of the carburetor and mated with the exhaust manifold at the rear area.

MUFFLER: Cast iron ends, mounted with brackets integral with the end castings. Exhaust pipe extension integral with the rear cover plate and no longer tapered or bent. Wrapped with asbestos, secured with three steel straps. The asbestos was no longer to be dyed black during 1914 production.

FUEL TANK: Cylindrical, under the front seat. Mounting brackets now clamped to the tank. Outlet was between the center and the right side, between the frame rails.

TRANSMISSION: Three pedal standard-design. Pedals were marked with “C,” “R,” and “B.” Transmission cover was cast aluminum, but now had reinforcements around the bolt holes at the widest part. Tapered inspection door, held with six screws. The door was a plain metal plate with no script.

COIL BOX ASSEMBLY: Ford, all metal, with one-piece flat top cover. The Ford box used the standard-size coils. The coils themselves had brass-plated tops.

LAMPS: Made by Edmond and Jones (E&J), Brown, Corcoran or Victor, all “black and brass.”

HORN: Bulb type, single twist. Black and brass style.

WINDSHIELD: Standard. Bottom section leaned back and top section was vertical. Painted black. Top section folded to the rear. Support brackets now had a bend to clear the top section as it was folded.

TOP: (Open cars). Top color was black on all open cars. Top irons the same as 1913.

SPEEDOMETER: Stewart Model 100, but larger than the 1913 type. Last year for speedometers as standard equipment, and a number of “Ford Specials” appeared.

TURTLE DECK (on Runabout): Similar in style to the 1913 but with rounded corners. Handles were brass but painted black.

© Bruce W. McCalley. Rev. Januaty 26, 2007
© Copyright 2024. Model T Ford Club of America. All Rights Reserved. From the Studio of Farmhouse Creative .
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Brent, the car has been repainted and I have looked everywhere for black but dont see any. Art

The wood is original and the upholstery did look like it may have been replaced, the seat backrest was made in three pieces, overlapping in the curved sections, as much as I would like it to be blue I will probably paint it black just to be correct. I just find it hard to believe an old repaint would have been do thorough. Art

Art,
I am not much help but I have one of those very early 1914 Touring cars you mentioned, engine #312.4XX,
body by Beaudette, also known as Pontiac. By engine number, it was assembled in July of 1913 and the body is dated 13
on the front seat support wood. Mine was repainted probably in the 1950's. The paint didn't stick well on the tub center
back panel and others seem to think that what shows today is that black/blue varnish Ford used. There is a "hint"
of blue in bright sunlight. Not a distinct blue that "I think I see" in your last post. Those Beaudette early 14 style
body cars were built along with the 1913's because they solved the weak body problem Ford had with the 1913 Touring.

Attached is the July 1, (1913) note from the old Ency.

Art,

Your car’s original paint is pretty good evidence that its body and probably wheels were blue when built. It’s later than written documentation describes, but not especially so, and your car is filling in gaps in the written documentation.

The color is a blue-black, according to contemporary comments, as what you found. The frame and fenders were black in contrast. The hood is uncertain and reasonable case could be made for blue-black or just black.

I think the modern guidelines are subject to revision as evidence appears, and should be considered working documents reflecting evolving states of knowledge.

Do you know where your car was assembled? I think one of the catches with Bruces Encyclopedia and his book is, that it is based on records of what they did in the prime factory in Dearborn. The story at the assembly plants may be another. We have over the years numerous documented examples that Ford was not good at production planing so that old parts was used up before new parts was used if at all posssible. And if a given factory was in surplus. It could very well be that one of the assembly plants had surplus blue color and used it up before switching to all black.

I have a 1914 Touring that was built in October of 1913. There are times I think I see some dark blue in a crack or crevice, but I just thought it could have been from a repaint in the past. Maybe it was blue from the factory...

Art-
According to Arnold and Faurote in Ford Methods and the Ford Shops, bodies were first sprayed (at 80 psi) with a brown metal body primer. After drying, bodies were sanded and ready for the second coat of body priming; a blue-black coat was "flowed on" with with paint nozzles that look like hand held garden hose sprinklers. Excess paint ran off and into a drip tray and was pumped back into the system. After the second priming dries, the "color varnish" and "finishing coats" were flowed on in the same manner. Then the upholstery work was done. After the upholstery work was done, the body was vacuumed of all upholstery debris, leather, horsehair, threads, etc. body exterior wiped down than given a final "finishing varnish" applied with the same garden hose sprinkler application process. (pgs 360-368)

Arnold and Faurote have an incredible amount of detail, but also lack an incredible amount of detail, like the actual color of the "finishing varnish" Images along with the text show both 1914 and 1915 bodies.

One would expect the brown metal body primer to be sprayed all over the body, inside and outside, but what about the second coat, the black blue coat of body priming? Obviously kick and heel panels would be primed, but what about the seat frames and inside the body that would be covered with upholstery panels? Possibly. Clearly there would be no reason to put any finishing varnish anywhere except exposed areas.

In the documentation section of McCalley's book Model T Ford, The Car that Changed the World, factory letter to Ford Branches, includes a revised list of paints and order numbers. It includes, "F-115 480 3rd and 4th coat Body Spraying Blue Color Varnish, Body" (pgs 555-556)

In my humble opinion, an October build may have had black blue finish color. Fenders, running boards, and splash aprons would be black. Wheels would be blue.

Should you choose to paint your car blue, I would suggest a Mercedes color, DB 332 (ca. 1963-1967) I painted my 1911 touring this color using Diamont Uno 4635 A and am pleased with the result.

YMMV

: ^ )

Keith

After 40 years at NASA, the one thing I have learned to trust, is empirical data. And this is where I run afoul of the current belief in the Model T community that "1913 cars were dark blue".

Show me the ORIGINAL, UNRESTORED cars that are undeniably blue.... From what I have seen, and based on discussions with many long-time collectors, they don't exist.

Sure, we've seen a door here, or some funny remnants there... but there are no complete cars you can show me that are definitely dark blue.
Also, I don't 100% buy into the belief the old varnishes turned black. Case in point:

Maxwell advertised the 1911 cars as "Dark Blue with cream wheels". There are about 100 1911 Model AB's left in existence. I know of four that are unrestored originals. I have personally seen two of them. They are STILL DARK BLUE. They have not changed to black as is believed in the model T community. If there are still 4 examples of the Maxwell AB left (out of about 100 surviving examples) that are blue as advertised, then surely there has to be 40 (or thereabouts) unrestored blue 1913 Model T's out of the thousand that are still left. Where are they?

Lastly... the observation that "my car is blue in the sunshine only" also comes into question. Most likely, the color is influenced by the reflection of the blue sky in the black paint.

I'm not trying to harsh anyone's buzz here. I'd love to prove that the 13's came in dark blue. I'm sick of Black model T's. But the data just isn't there.