MTFCA Forum

24 coupe
I replaced bushings and kingpins in the front end. Im new at this but watched you tube videos and think i did well. after that I wanted to take my spokes from black to natural. this was really hard.
Stripping paint off my wooden spokes and refinishing them. On one wheel, I took the hub apart but left the hub side with the bolts going through the wood still connected. now i realize i didnt need to do that. I was told on a Facebook post that i could not put the other side of the hub back on without repressing the spokes. is this true? there's nothing to repress, they are still tight and haven't moved. The attitude of the spokes did not change. i don't see why i shouldn't put it back together (so i did) now I worry . when i put it back together I replaced each bolt one at a time so nothing would change. Yes I used new bolts, as you have to, i don't know the term.. ping? the bolt ends so the nuts cant come off. Anyway in my opinion the spokes never changed attitude in their arraignment with the hub they stayed connected to. please advise.

Bill, you are fine, taking the hub plate off will not change anything with the spokes.
However, I am a little confused, you said you left the bolts on and replaced them one at a time. The hub bolts should be carriage bolts with the head on the front side of the hub and the nut on the back side. You shouldnt be able to remove the hub plate without first removing all the hub bolts. Perhaps you could post a picture.

Thanks for your input Humblej, So kind of you to care. This community is so helpful and has such great vibe. I did replace with the proper carriage bolts and nuts and with the wheel off the car i took the nuts off and lifted the nut side of the hub off keeping the bolts still intact. When replacing , i put the hub back on the old bolts but then one by one traded an old for a new.
I'm trying to figure out how to post the pic. lol

One trick to posting a picture is to reduce the file size below 999 Kb.

Bill. The word is PEEN as in ball PEEN hammer.

Another important "word" issue. A "carriage" bolt is NOT a "wheel" bolt. Although both have rounded heads, they are made to entirely different specifications! A "carriage" bolt in a wheel is too soft and prone to fracturing and breaking. They lack sufficient tensile strength for the stresses a wheel might give them in normal use. The model T parts suppliers should have proper wheel bolts in correct sizes.

Be sure that you used the right type of bolts.

A full set of the proper Hub bolts is only 39.95 at Langs. No reason to go to the hardware store.

No reason to go to the hardware store...

...because they won't have the right ones. Ordinary carriage bolts won't do.

Thanks you guys!
yes of course i did use the langs wheel bolts and nuts.... it came in a full 4 wheel kit.
i just drove it and it went ok. In the picture, the gap between one of the spokes in the upper right hand corner went away after i put in the other half of the hub. Thank you guys again!
I like the way they turned out, kinda bruised and old and weathered like me.

Interesting 6 lug wheel. Split rim 21"?
Any idea on the parentage/origin?

Something didn’t look right to me about the bolt holes for the bolts in spokes. So I looked at a pile of wheels I had and I maybe right. All the wheels I have, about 20+ have the bolts between the spokes not through the spokes.
Maybe that make is different or someone did it wrong after a spoke job????

Good catch. I hadnt noticed. Yes ford wheels had the holes between the spokes.
This could explain a non ford rim/fellow adapted with new spokes in the past.

I noticed it too. Ford didn’t go through the spokes for a reason. Why? I started to do that a few years ago when I bought some replacement spokes. So I thought it might be for a reason not to. It must have worked OK in the wheel above but?

Yes. The bolt holes are drilled through the joint between each spoke so that all of the spokes are secured in place, instead of just every other one. Also, drilling through the center of the spokes right through the load bearing portion of the spoke can weaken the integrity of the spokes.

Weakened spoke maybe? A hole in middle might weaken a spoke more than a part of a hole on the edge? Just a swag.

Bolts through the spokes wouldn't really weaken them much. The problem is, that the bolts now become hinge points about which the spoke can "rotate." With bolts between the joints, the bolts act as "keys" that lock one spoke against the next. Kind of difficult to explain, so think of it this way, if the rear wheels are like that too, and you apply the brakes, the spokes will eventually skew ahead, using the hub bolts as hinge points. It's definitely poor practice and should be changed.

There's some weird stuff going on with that wheel. There are only 5 rim bolts. They are set at different intervals around the felloe, not evenly spaced.
The type of lugs used will allow this. Maybe even the drilled spokes are the original fixing. If all is well, I can't see any reason not to proceed.

Regarding wheel hub bolts, substituting those with hardware shop bolts is not a good idea. Hardware shop bolts have rolled threads on an undersized stem, which will not be a good fit in the holes between the spokes. Proper wheel bolts have cut threads on a full 3/8" shank, and they should be of greater tensile strength. You may be fortunate to find old stock hardware bolts with cut threads and full sized stems. This would be better, but still not likely strong enough.

Allan from down under.

There appears to be 6 Allan - upper right side in the shadows.

Steve, count the spokes between each lug. The number varies. There is something odd going on.

Allan from down under.

I agree - it's whonky, for sure !

Allan wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 14, 2024 5:33 pm

Steve, count the spokes between each lug. The number varies. There is something odd going on.

Allan from down under.

I agree two spokes between 1 & 2 and the three spokes between 2 and 3. Seven spokes left --
--
Tried to enhance the photo looks like another rim bolt at the arrow. Spoke count is Spooky --
--
If it only has 5 rim bolts then the pattern of 5 rim bolts over a 12 spokes could be what it is. Matches the pattern. But a head on photo is needed

You've only got 6 hub bolts, so how do you hold 12 spokes and keep them in position? Answer, you put the bolts between the spokes, then 6 bolts WILL hold 12 spokes firmly in position to the hub!

Here, this may help you understand or decide to re-spoke your steel felloe wheels, but you'll have to build a Spoke Press to do it.

What you have to know is the tenon diameter Ford Standard are 5/8", 1/2" diameter and what kind o wheels you've got. Kelsey/Hayes 1/2" diameter and are 1/32" wider at the base from Ford Standards. Your wheels will say either Kelsey or Hays somewhere on them otherwise they're Ford's.

Frank, I can't see a sixth bolt at your arrow. nor can I see a lug. If there is one, the spoke interval would really be interesting around it. Your star pattern for 5 bolts would work, if the apex was rotated a bit left or right so that it does not interfere with a spoke tenon at that point.
This wheel is loopy!

Allan from down under.

Allan wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 15, 2024 1:03 am

Frank, I can't see a sixth bolt at your arrow. nor can I see a lug. If there is one, the spoke interval would really be interesting around it. Your star pattern for 5 bolts would work, if the apex was rotated a bit left or right so that it does not interfere with a spoke tenon at that point.
This wheel is loopy!

Allan from down under.

The arrow was pointing to a possible "6th" bolt. We need a head on picture to see what there. I don't think a star pattern of rim bolts would cause any issues, I would say that its the strength of the rim to stay round.
Just found more 5 lug rim pictures

That is an interesting one.
The wheels look like the accessory Firestone ones that normally use 6 wheel clamp bolts, I have a set on my car.

I think I have a fellow like this one with the odd spacings in the shed, I couldn't bear to throw it as it just seemed too unusual I will see if I can get a photo of it.
Cheers
Glen

Those Firestone wheels in Frank's photos all have square wood felloes, which are drilled for the rim bolts. Hence they can dodge the spokes easily.

The wheel in the original post have the holes drilled in a metal felloe, a completely different kettle of fish. It is quite unique.

Allan from down under.

I wonder if there is a manufacturers stamping inside the fellow.

I don't know why there is so much fascination with these wheels. They're either accessory wheels, or wheels from some other car, that have been fitted with Model T hubs. The only real issue with these wheels is the improperly located hub bolt holes.

Each bolt absolutely needs to go between two spokes. It's standard practice based on engineering and not unique to Model T Ford wheels.

The way the wheel is currently set-up is a disaster waiting to happen.

Holy cow! problem 1, I worked on the two front wheels (spokes) for hours and never noticed the odd placement of the bolts that hold it on to the outer rim. All four wheels are like that. Now it bugs me that they are not symmetrical. And the order is exactly the same on all wheels. Problem 2, the placements of the spoke bolts are in the wrong position, (the middle of the one spoke) but I assume its too late to do anything about it. I don't have a problem with building a press. I've seen a few on you tube. Sounds fun. I just retired and like working on the T despite my limited skills and knowledge. this all started with me replacing the spindle bushings and kingpins. I did that successfully. I had some spokes that moved a tiny bit in the area where they become a dowel in the hole. I believe I fixed that with several applications of linseed oil. I think they fattened up and fit better. Can I re-drill the bolt holes on the proper places where the spokes meet? I would think they would be even more compromised then with a hole in the middle. I can't really afford all new spokes now as I assume the spoke holes are probably the same in all four wheels. I made contact with the Denver branch of MFTCA and there's a meeting Saturday. i hope to get some help there.
I thank you all for pointing out the problems and advice given. yall are much appreciated.

A woodworker would tell you to buy some hickory dowels and fill in all the holes before you drill new holes. I see they have them at www.bearwood.com, or at least they can make them for you. Even after you do that some people will say you need new spokes. I am not an expert, but wheels do not break inside the hubs, and they have the strength of the hubs to keep them in place. Something to consider.

Here's the thing... I believe that if you re-drill the holes in the proper location you will weaken the spokes that currently have holes in them. If you opt for new spokes, and do so by buying loose spokes, you run the risk of getting spokes that won't fit your accessory, (non-Ford), wheels. Having the spokes professionally replaced by someone like Stutzmans or Calimers would be the way to go in that case. Or... you can use the wheels as-is. Knowing what's wrong with them and monitoring their condition frequently, looking for the spokes to begin "skewing", would get you by for a while. It's not like they're likely to fail suddenly. Ultimately however, they will need to be respoked.

As Jerry says, new spokes from the vendors may not fit your particular wheels. If you contemplate rebuilding wheels with new spokes, I would find some known T wheel felloes first so the weird lug bolt spacing is negated.I can see no benefit in rebiulding the wheels you have.

Allan from down under.

I would never use natural spoke wheels. I have a car that this was done on back in the 1950''s. The spokes were not maintained properly. The wheels are as tight as when they left the factory, but the grain shows big time now. Even though I sanded and primed the spokes well, It was not well enough! Go for your natural spokes, but I wouldn't do it.

If you replace fellows you will need rims too.
You just need new set of wheels.
Wire? With hubs?

There is nothing wrong with your current wheels other than the fact that they should be respoked sometime by a professional. It's not important that they're non-Ford, or have an odd arrangement of rim lugs, or confuse people. It only matters that they are in good & safe operating condition. Their only fault, (that can be seen here), is that they've been installed incorrectly.