Scorched wood band lining usable?

[Eric Sole]

I have used Scandinavia linings on my car for many years without trouble but the thought of practically "maintainance free" kevlar sounded attractive, so I opted for this material. The low drum cracked within a year and it has taken me 16 years to redo the transmission while completely restoring the car. I now have new low and reverse drums and a good used brake drum (better than the one I had for the past 35 years).

I have learned that my bands were quite out of round and the pedal cams were worn which most likely caused the crack in the first place, but after reading many posts on the pros and cons of cotton vs wood vs kevlar I opted for wood linings to avoid any more drum cracking (just in case). I adjusted the pedals to go almost to the floor as recommended to avoid any dragging. The bands are nice and round as can be seen here before installation.

I live in a hilly area with a maximum of 27 percent grade according to an iPhone setting on the floor of the car. On the first trial run after just a couple hundred feet downhill the brake pedal went to the floor and I readjusted it 2 times during the drive but it was to the floor again when I parked the car. With all the newly painted parts there are always some abnormal smells, and I wasn't sure but it seemed like it smelled of burnt wood when I opened the transmission door.

For the next drive a couple weeks later I adjusted the brake again, keeping it as loose as possible but with a firm feel at the end of its travel. The brake worked fine with two people in the car but then tried with four people (I have a rumble seat) and the brake pedal quickly went to the floor like on the first outing.

After inspecting the linings I can see the brake lining is scorched and there is some non-metallic material in the filter screen which was not found during the previous brake adjustments (pictures attached), so now for the questions:
1. Does the scorching preclude using the lining any longer?
2. For those who drive in hilly areas, do wood linings have as much "grab" as cotton or kevlar?
3. Do wood linings require a more extended break-in period to grip fully? It seems to me that my wood linings try to slip more than the cotton linings did, or maybe my leg is getting weaker with age and I am just now experiencing how hard I need to push the low pedal.

I have read many Forum users recommend using kevlar for the brake, and wood for low and reverse since braking requires "dragging" the band until the car comes to a stop so this requires pumping the pedal in order to replenish cooling oil to the brake drum. Mounting the lining in two pieces looks like a good way to help with getting oil where it needs to be, especially when the brake needs to be used constantly on an extended downhill stretch.

I appreciate your input, especially from those of you who drive in very hilly areas.

[TXGOAT2]

Does your car have the magneto in place?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I think the left end, in your photos, shows too much wear to continue using it.

The bands are nice and round as can be seen here before installation.

This band is nowhere near round. This gap is bad news, and also where you had some of the burning.
Also, with all the adjusting you had to do, I'd be checking for a cracked drum.

[Moxie26]

A result of dangerously low engine oil and weak band springs.

[big2bird]

I think if I lived in a hilly area, I would invest in aux brakes for safety sake.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

A result of dangerously low engine oil and weak band springs.

How are you able to tell that either one of these conditions existed???

[Allan]

The photo of the "round" band concerns me. Another poster has already indicated that it is not round. When the band is checked for roundness there should be some spring-back off the drum so it disengages from the drum. Yours does not do that in the photo, so it is reliant on the sprig between the band ears to open it up.I think your band has been dragging the whole time. Wood and cotton will not survive this. Kevlar will, but the heat generated will damage the drum.
The brake band is the only one which requires the band to slip on the drum. Reducing the amount of slip is down to driving technique. On and off application of the pedal is better than sustained pressure. Anticipating stops is even better so you can reduce speed in advance. Use the engine braking An old timer advised me to drive as if you have no brakes, and drive accordingly.

Allan from down under.

[Norman Kling]

What I have learned to do is to push the pedal hard when applying the band so that it holds the drum tight. Slipping the band is what overheats the drum. This happens by either letting it slip to smooth your shift, or dragging the foot on the brake. Best to shift down if possible and then pump the brake so oil is constantly between the band and drum. With low, if I have to wait for a signal, I pull back the parking brake to keep it in neutral. That will hold it in the right position better than trying with the foot to keep it just right. A little harder to start up from a stop because as you accelerate, you need to use one hand on the gas and one to release the parking lever, but it can be done and still steer the car.
Norm

[RecklessKelly]

I think its best to adjust for a firm engagement with a little extra gap before the pedal hits the wood to prevent excessive slippage which could grind away at the drum.
Looks like black sealant chunks and shreaded metal fragments in the screen. I use my low as a slowing down brake and the brake pedal for the legal stop.
Just curious about your rumble seat, can you post a picture of it? Is it a coupe with a reverse hinged lid and seat added?

[speedytinc]

So much to un-pack here.
You did not mention if you removed the hogs head to install the new bands. If not, they became out of round during the instal.
I have heard of wood bands installed thru the inspection cover. I cant see how without cracking the wood @ the very least. It's near sure death to drums with Kevlar bands. Adjusting bands by travel doesnt take into account worn cams, out of round rubbing or the pedal hanging up on the floorboards.
Going down a steep hill shifts most of your band oil away to the front of the motor.
I see that the left side of the band as installed looks very thin. The ear is awful close to the drum. That brake lining needs replacing.
I also notice a bit of drum surface damage.
I would recommend scandia lining until you get the hang of driving a T. Minimize brake usage. use spark & throttle to slow you down.
Rockey mountain brakes for your hilly roads. I have seen guys smoke RM brakes as well. Technique is important. Riding the brake down hill dont work as you learned? The rule of thumb on hills is go down @ the same speed/gear you went up. Maybe LOCKING the low pedal (not using as a brake) & letting the engine slow you down is the answer.

[Allan]

Just to be clear, if you dump the pedal you can lock up reverse and first gear bands. It is advisable to do so as soon as you are rolling so the band does not slip. You cannot do that with the brake drum, unless you want to lock up the back wheels into a skid. It must slip to do its slowing work. The trick is to drive in such a way that the slipping is reduced to a minimum.

Allan from down under.

[Norman Kling]

I agree with the above that your bands are not perfectly round. The brake does not last very long, regardless of what kind lining you use. I have a 26 Roadster with rumble seat and has wood bands. I also have gone down a very steep grade. First thing I did when I got the car about 30 years ago was to install Rocky Mountain brakes and Ruckstell. Before I start down a steep hill, when I would still be able to stop with brake, I shift down to Ruckstell. I do this before descending because it would be almost impossible to do the shift while going down hill. If that is still not enough to hold the car back on compression, I will use the low pedal. Then as needed, I pump the brake. The parking brake should not be used unless it is the last possibly way to stop because it will also put the car into neutral. I have the Rocky's adjusted so they also work with the parking brake. Anyway, use as much engine compression as possible and as little brake pressure as necessary to stop the car. By the way, that car with Rumble seat has wood bands and although they chatter a bit, they have not worn out.
Norm

[TXGOAT2]

A well-tuned engine that can run at a low idle speed helps with braking. With the the throttle closed, the engine dissipates power in 3 ways:
Friction, compression and related heating, and vacuum in the intake. A high idle setting reduces engine braking effect. Driving a T is kind of like driving a loaded truck. You need to "drive ahead" and avoid using the service brake so far as driving conditions allow. Engine braking would be most effective at sea level, and less effective as altitude increases.

[TXGOAT2]

On a really long steep downgrade, especially with passengers or any other significant load, you might consider stopping near the top of the grade and shutting off the gas to allow the engine to run out of fuel. Then go down the grade with the engine off to maximize engine braking. If you just turn the key off, you'll pump gas and air into the exhaust system, and when you restart the engine, it may blow the muffler out.

[TXGOAT2]

Anytime you drive in mountain country, it's a good idea to pay close attention to the oil level and keep it near full.
A car with no original type magneto may not throw as much oil on the bands as a stock one. That could make brake overheating more likely.

[Moxie26]

Closer observation of lining material questions if it is really wood lining, or is it leather. ??

[speedytinc]

Another consideration is to maintain & use your big drum lined brakes to slow you down hill. Realize when you pull on the parking brake handle, your motor goes into neutral. Careful technique involved. I use my parking brake shoes on my 27 this way. They are good brakes. There is a conversion kit to activate the parking shoes with the brake pedal & keep the motor engaged. The shoes must be kept oil free.(No leaky outer axle seals)

[TXGOAT2]

I'd want to use all available braking resources on a long steep descent. Alternate between them to allow heat to dissipate, and use engine braking to the maximum.There is no downside to using engine braking. You could go all the way down Pike's Peak in Low or high with the throttle closed with no ill effect. If you have a late axle with lined brakes, they are very effective for the short term, but the pressed steel drums will heat up very quickly, so they must be used intermittently to allow them to cool, and be sure you keep your hand on the lever and the ratchet disengaged. You don't want to lock the rear wheels or overheat the brakes by letting therm drag. When using low gear for engine braking, press the pedal down hard and keep pressure on it to prevent slipping the band. I'd use reverse very sparingly as a brake, since it will have to slip if the car is moving forward, unless the engine is shut off. Start any steep descent SLOWLY, and use all available braking resources to keep the car's speed LOW. By low, I mean 10 MPH or less. If you have an auxiliary transmission or Ruxtel, learn how to use it properly for enhanced engine braking, and by all means, learn how to shift it correctly under all conditions, and learn how to avoid getting "locked in neutral". I would select a lower auxiliary gear BEFORE beginning a descent.

[TXGOAT2]

Remember that the engine must be rotating for the service brake to get the oil it needs for cooling. The engine doesn't have to be running, but it MUST be ROTATING!

[George Mills]

I suspect that for some reason your 'band' is NOT making full contact with the drum and the 'ears' are teeter-tottering when you step on the brake causing a much smaller contact area with the drum. At least that is what the pictures appear to be.

Did you install the bands with the hogshead off? That way round usually stays round provided you walk them on from the finger side (drop them over the finger side open area...walk them forward in correct order). Trying "through the tranny door" is possible with new 'rounded' wood lined bands...but that comes with a big but! Depending on how the hogshead was cast, one of the bosses may come out darned near size to size from my experience. That becomes a fiddle and jiggle until Goldilocks says, 'just right' and it magically just pops in place on its own. I've lost close to an hour on this jiggle thing...and had them go right in...go figure. When it hangs, the initial urge is to grab it and yank until it pulls through. Can't do that with wood and with Kevlar it becomes even more critical.

My further question is...did the wood chirp at you when new at the initial engagement? Folks like to blame the chirp on the wood finish and a claimed need to settle down in use...me, that chirp is a sign of a drag because the noise comes from 'stick/slip' says that even perfectly round wood lined bands are just a wee bit too tight to begin with. Just me...but if they chirp on a new wood set, I usually undo a turn or two on the adjuster nut and the chirp goes away almost all the time.

I'm also not sure you can 'ride' any brake material for long. I don't know, I learned to pump my brakes on everything from an old T guy, depending on the car I have also had some Scandia, some wood, some Kevlar, and only do the hard pedal press when I'm like at 1MPH.

[John Codman]

A 27% grade? Wow!

[Moxie26]

From the comments that were given, you do need a new set of band liners. Your choice is your choice. Personally I would stay with the wood liners, such as they are not abrasive like Kevlar and they will last longer than cotton..... But first of all, after you strip the old linings off, you need a brake drum, cracked or intact, to use as a gauge to reshape your metal bands to the circumference of a transmission drum. After that's done, the linings can be installed on the bands and then put back in service. I'll try to include a YouTube video I found for the installation of wood liners on transmission bands. Hope this helps you. And others with their problem ......... https://youtu.be/2uhM4DPE0Fc?si=I4D-QikirtV4st6u

[RajoRacer]

I'm in John's camp regarding do not attempt to install wooden linings through the band access hole - you'll crack the lining & pull the rivets through !

[TXGOAT2]

Would new bands be a good idea?

[Moxie26]

Check out the video link I posted on woodliner replacements

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

... they are not abrasive like Kevlar ...

Kevlar is not abrasive.

[Moxie26]

We are all entitled to our preferences.

[JohnH]

Another consideration is to maintain & use your big drum lined brakes to slow you down hill. Realize when you pull on the parking brake handle, your motor goes into neutral. Careful technique involved. I use my parking brake shoes on my 27 this way. They are good brakes. There is a conversion kit to activate the parking shoes with the brake pedal & keep the motor engaged. The shoes must be kept oil free.(No leaky outer axle seals)

I've always used the hand brake in my 26 for most of the stopping, and I live in a hilly area. The original asbestos linings were excellent, but as they're no longer available I had bonded linings fitted to the shoes. The repro linings you rivet on yourself work, but weren't as good as either of those. For descending long hills I do not apply the brakes continuously, but apply them to almost bring the car to a stop, then let it speed up again and so on. The pressed steel drums are prone to fade otherwise. I will also alternate between the handbrake and low gear.
In response to "but it puts the transmission into neutral", whenever I mention using the handbrake as the service brake; my answer is, put your foot on the low pedal if it bothers you.

[Allan]

We are all entitled to our preferences. We are also entitled to correct mis-information. Kevlar is not abrasive.

Allan from down under.

[Eric Sole]

Hello fellow Model T drivers. I appreciate your input and intended to answer your questions and give some details on what happened on the inaugural drive of my car, but something went wrong and the post just disappeared without a trace. It's been a long week and I am too tired to try to rewrite it so for now I'll send this.

The pictures show the bands installed with hogshead off, then with the hogshead on, then what it looks like after the drive.
The bands really hug the drums.

The left ear looks to be at its normal height here.

The left ear looks quite low after the drive. This is the side where the turning drum should flow oil inside the band, but it's closed down tight.

[Moxie26]

Your brake band definitely has to be re-arched to the circumference of the brake drum. . You definitely need new wood liners. Follow the video I posted to re-arch your bands and then install your liners

[Allan]

Eric, you have spotted the problem. That brake band will be dragging well before it is fully engaged. Part of the fix may mean having to re-arch the forged ear on the end. it appears to need the curve to be more shallow so it can follow the metal band.

I have never used wooden bands so have no experience with them. From your photo, they appear to hold bands very close to the drums. when fitting other types of bands the ears usually spring well away form the drums so there is clearance. If I ever have them sitting as close as yours, I deliberately open them up. That way the band itself helps to dis-engage the linings, the springs between the ears helping, rather than doing all the work. You will definitely need new band springs to drive those bands off the drums.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

[Moxie26]

Really doesn't matter what band linings you use, the metal bands have to be arched to be true to the circumference of the drum. This way the ears of the bands will fit snugly to the pedal shafts and springs.

[TXGOAT2]

I'd think it would be advantageous for the drum's surface to be in good condition, with a good surface finish and no taper or out-of-round, and be very close to the original outside diameter. Advanced wear in other parts of the transmission would probably contribute to poor band action and more rapid band wear.

[Eric Sole]

My camera takes crummy pictures, making the drum look rough and the wood liners like leather. Just about everything that could be replaced in the transmission was replaced with new parts. The brake drum is a used part with 0.005" out of round and no apparent taper. It is so much nicer than my original brake drum that worked ok even with its center area gouged out from rivets cutting into it.

In this picture even the brand new low and reverse drums look pretty bad with the oil streaked over them.

[George Mills]

While it is obvious the metal band needs some work...I'll throw another idea on the heap!

Did you use new springs? I have found the new replacement springs to be too aggressive in spring-force and at times wanting to ride up the face of the ear lug. (As yours shows). While correcting the arc of the band...you may want question the spring if new.

I find it best to place these new springs in a vice and compress them fully with the vice, then let them rebound. Do a second time for good message. They then install a wee bit easier, work fine, and seem to not want to creep up the end ear fork as much.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Does the backside of your removeable band ear have a step worn in it from decades of use? If so, does that step tend to influence the band ear, causing the boss on the hogshead to ride down the step, thereby driving the band end downward, toward the drum?

[speedytinc]

While it is obvious the metal band needs some work...I'll throw another idea on the heap!

Did you use new springs? I have found the new replacement springs to be too aggressive in spring-force and at times wanting to ride up the face of the ear lug. (As yours shows). While correcting the arc of the band...you may want question the spring if new.

I find it best to place these new springs in a vice and compress them fully with the vice, then let them rebound. Do a second time for good message. They then install a wee bit easier, work fine, and seem to not want to creep up the end ear fork as much.

It may be an optical delusion, but, It appears the 2 front springs are noticeably lighter than the brake band spring.

[Moxie26]

After years of being installed, band springs will lose their original length. Because of the constant pressure of the adjustment , I would always use new band springs so the linings will have better clearance from the drums when not in use, and will absorb oil better.

[Craig Leach]

That's A NO! Don't try to use that burnt band.
Craig.

[Moxie26]

Craig... To what were you referring when you said . . .. "No". ?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Craig... To what were you referring when you said . . .. "No". ?

Don't try to use that burnt band.

[Moxie26]

I'm sure we'll hear from Craig a little bit later on...

[Craig Leach]

I was referring to the burnt band in the pic. I tried adjusting a burnt band several times in a tour. Made for some scary driving on down grades
Craig.

[Moxie26]

Thanks Craig .

[Eric Sole]

I appreciate your answer Craig, I will definitely not be using the scorched wood lining.

The return springs are the "extra long" type, they all measured the same before I installed them. I figured the same as Robert, that the stronger the spring, the better the band would pull back away from the drum, but I can see how too much force could cause problems. I may try "squashing" the spring down and see how the band likes it. Thanks Jerry.

There are no notches in the ear clips, but I after some careful measuring I have found the band needs alignment in more than one plane. I will take care of that before installing any new lining.

I found this picture on the internet, a 1921 Centerdoor driving in San Francisco. The slope corresponds exactly to the one on my street, 15 degrees/27 % grade. I shudder to think of braking on those cobblestones when they were wet or even worse, frozen over.

[Allan]

Eric, squashing the spring down will be of no benefit. You may shorten it, but that will mean it will be less likely to completely drive the band off the drum, contrary to its purpose. If the longer springs can be fitted, that is the way to go.

Allan from down under.