Starter grounding question.

[signsup]

Installing rebuilt starter on my 27 and needed a gasket which I found and installed with a little goop. So, with a cork gasket between the mating surface of the starter and the hogshead, how does the starter get it's ground?
On my WWII jeep, the mating surfaces not only do not get a gasket, but need to be free of paint so that bare metal touches bare metal. Does not appear so on the T.
Is it the four little cap screws?

I don't know if I will have an issue until assembly is complete, but would a small ground strap from a starter cap screw to the frame ground strap location hurt?

I'll hang up and listen.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

It gets its ground through the 4 bolts. You will not have an issue with that.

[TXGOAT2]

Ford did not use any kind of engine ground strap as far as I know. Adding one is inexpensive, easy, and reversible, and may improve your starter's performance by assuring that the engine unit is well-grounded to the frame or battery ground strap. The bolts that attach the starter seem to be adequate to ground it to the engine assembly. It's a fairly typical arrangement across many makes and models and years. It would be a good idea to see to it that the bolts and bolt holes are clean, and that the surfaces on the starter unit that contact the bolt heads are clean and free of paint or rust.

[mtntee20]

I am, already, hearing the shrieks and cries. Using a ground strap is a good idea. IF you are worried about "looks", put the strap on the underside, near the block to hide it.

4 Bolts, with any kind of anti seize, will never conduct electricity as well as a good ground strap, mounted properly. Keep in mind: The starter is the largest amp load in the entire car.

Good Luck

[DanTreace]

Added a 12v size ground cable to my starter on latest project, don't think it is really needed, as my other T's used the chassis ground from the 6v battery and the starter always pulls strong. BTW, starter always fitted with gasket and gasket cement on surface of starter and gasket face to hogshead, no leaks needed there

This project I also added a solenoid to the factory foot switch to save current in the old switch, so adding a ground strap from one of the starter bolts to a bolt at the frame/body bracket seemed interesting to do. The 6v starter does crank well too.

[signsup]

My starter rebuilder also mention possibly adding a solinoid. A short, narrow braided ground strap from the outboard upper bolt to the castle nut holding the rear motor mount to the frame where my negative battery cable is attached would give me a very positive negative ground. I'll give this some thought.
Thanks for the comments.

When I disassembled the starter prior to the rebuild, I had to scrape off much goop and old gasket and each bolt hole had a sleeve of silicone in the threads that I removed, but can't swear that new thin coating of CRV did not get back into the threads. But, the old starter worked until it didn't. Just trying to help the old girl along.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

You would most likely be attaching the strap to one of the same bolts that you suspect may not giving a sufficient ground in the first place.

[Moxie26]

Clean, non-painted , metal to metal contacts works wonders..... Are the starter mounting threads in the hogshead painted ???? If so, clean all paint out of the threads , also the holes in the starter and where the flange of the screw meets, and use clean mounting screws as this really adds to your grounding of the starter, not to mention the flange area that meets the hogshead from the starter shaft... That should also be clean metal along with the clean metal on the hogshead area where the starter mounts.

[Woody23]

Hello Robert,

I provide my clients star lock washers when I rebuild their starter or recommend sanding off the paint under the four mounting bolts. I also ask if they replaced the parking brake quadrant and if they have I suggest adding a ground strap since it’s a convenient ground bolt to use. Remember you have 580+ amps trying to flow from your battery through the starter and then to ground so the cleaner the path the better. Anything to ensure this will only provide you a better performing starter.

David Woods
Williamston T Works

[TXGOAT2]

If your car has extra holes in the frame somewhere near the engine, I'd use one of them for a ground rather than an engine mount bolt. I'd use one of the water inlet bolts or another substantial bolt on the engine assembly rather than any of the oil pan bolts or engine mount bolts. The steel starter mounting bolts will do a good job of grounding the starter to the engine as long as they are clean and tight. They are short, and there are four of them.
I haven't done it, but adding a solenoid and using the foot switch to operate it is a good idea. The positive engagement of the solenoid prevents starter drive and ring gear issues and assures a good electrical connection. I'd want to use a quality solenoid and top quality connections. The best connections possible won't give good results with a worn-out starter or a cheap or aged battery.

[big2bird]

Mr. Woods. 580 ampere?

How did you arrive at that number?

[Steve Jelf]

From 1919 on, Ford made millions of cars with batteries and starters.
Apparently people were able to drive them.

[TXGOAT2]

Yep... and people who did good, comprehensive maintenance had very few issues.

[Moxie26]

Woody23..... Right on !!!.... Plus using the correct ( plus ) amperage capacity battery cables helps.

[Oldav8tor]

I have a 12 volt WOSP starter with a built-in solenoid. I chose to connect a #4 grounding cable directly between a mounting bolt on the starter to the battery. Copper is a better conductor than steel and even though it may be overkill, I'll never have a problem due to a poor ground.

[Mark Gregush]

I have been installing the starter, bendix and hogs head inspection gaskets dry for many years and really have not run into any leak issues. Once they get wet with oil they swell up and seal just fine.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

This has all been way overthunk...

[signsup]

I had thought of the star washers and think that is the way I will go so that no ground strap will be seen. I used new cap screws, so I'll take them off one at a time, cile off any paint or corrosion off the starter plate and reattach with internal and external star washers.
Did Henry do it? No...
Will it hurt? No...

[Woody23]

To answer the question of amp draw, I measure it when testing staters. I think the official Ford spec is 530-550A but batteries are a bit stronger these days. I use a Napa commercial 6V battery which has 600 CCA and I have a 1000 A shunt on my bench tester. So common for me to measure 550-580 on max torque test and I typically measure 13-15 ft/lbs of torque. No load spin test is around 70 A, this is a great test to ensure there is no drag on the armature shaft. So if the alignment is off you will see the motor pulling more, so time to find the mis-alignment and correct.

I want to try that 6v Optima Battery, it has 800 CCA.

Remember this is a 6V system, people get used to 12v systems which use less amps and a lot of times will use 12v battery cables on a T which are not rated as high and can either get warm or limit current. So another thing to check if you have an underperforming starter.

I attached a photo on my dedicated T starter bench tester.

Great tool to diagnose and test starters.

I can measure:

Starter Amp draw for both no load spin and max torque
Scale for measure ft/lbs
Volt meter to measure volt drop
Laser tach to measure RPM ( I believe Ford spec is 4000 RPM, no load) I typically measure 3500-5000, crazy they can spin that fast.

So it’s always an advantage to have a pro test, rebuild or diagnosis your starter, I get a lot of “rebuilt starters” that was done by the local shop and don’t really see anything inside that was rebuilt, plus they have no way to test.

Hope that answers your question.

David Woods
Williamston T Works

[Moxie26]

Woody 23... Happy Thanksgiving and thank you again for "Giving to us " what I believe was a repost of your starter testing and pictures. ...... My father , electrician , educated me on sizes of copper wire and it's capability to carry current safely in applications.... Lifelong employee at Hercules Powder Company, explosives manufacturer, safety prevailed. ...... I believe that Dan's picture of adding a cable from the starter mounting back to the battery Negative terminal/ frame mounting was the one that helped me to do the same to 1926 Runabout...... Your information is correct and hopefully an education that will change previous methods and electrical values thought by some..... We do learn something helpful everyday, thanks again for your help.

[Woody23]

Hello and Happy Thanksgiving Moxie26!

I hope you and our family had a wonderful holiday.
Yes I did post the photo of my bench tester in the past, I was just answering the question of where the 580 A draw number came from. I see and sure you do as well a lot of slow starters out there so just wanted to touch on the amount of amps it really takes to spin it and the benefit on having it professionally rebuilt by someone that specializes in T starters. Get them done right it will most likely be the last time you last to mess with it.

Happy Holidays!

David Woods
Williamston T Works