MTFCA Forum

How to remove that nut under the horn bracket?

Looks like enough clearance for a ring spanner to me.

Allan from down under.

Allan wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2024 4:35 pm

Looks like enough clearance for a ring spanner to me.

Allan from down under.

"Box wrench" in the USA.

You may need to buy a cheap ring spanner and grind the outside of it so it will fit over the bolt head. I would not try to use an open end.

You might want to check at a used tool store and see if they have an aircraft cylinder base wrench, which are specially bent to fit nuts like this. Just make sure you confirm the size of the nut.

It would be cheaper to get a wrench at Harbor Freight, and grind, bend, and heat it as you need to, to make it fit. Just make sure you carry it with you in the car toolbox. There is no point in keeping it in the home toolbox, since it will only have one sphere of use, and that will be on your Model T.

Hi Henry,
The issue with H-B is they want to sell wrenches by the set & now that they are trying to improve the quality of there tools they are more
expensive. I would guess that is a 5/8" head on the bolt. If you don't have a extra box wrench that can be ground thin enough to fit in that
tight of place may I suggest the hardware store for a single wrench. Also if you remove the rear bolt & push down on the front of the water
pump the bolt may come loose with out having to over work a thin box wrench. I would suggest a Craftsman as the box tends to protrude
farther than some other brands. I keep a box of wrenches & sockets just for this kind of issue & a box of some of the weirdest wrenches you
have ever seen. Once made a long 5/8" straight box to remove a pinch bolt on a shift fork in a split shaft PTO to avoid removing the pump &
PTO from the truck. Saved 4 days work. Good luck.
Craig.

Monty 98 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2024 4:31 pm

How to remove that nut under the horn bracket?

There may be an on'off reason for the Phillips looking + on the head of the bolt.

I know you blokes call it a box wrench, but the only round boxes I know of are hat boxes. Is calling your ring spanners a box wrench a throwback to the square axle nuts on horse drawn vehicles?

Allan from down under.

Drill a hole in the side of a socket of that size to accept a steel rod that you turn. A socket may fit in that space but if not, take it down some.

You are removing the water pump. Yes? The horn is off, the fan belt is off?
Remove the rear bolt, it is in open space and easy to get to. Try to shake the water pump a bit to see if it is firmly stuck onto the side of the block or not.
Regardless. You may be able to barely get an open end wrench part way onto the bolt's head. Another option is to drive a nail or small punch or old wood chisel in between the bolt's head and the water pump's inlet to the block. Anything to more or less lock the bolt head to the pump. Then with one hand pushing down on the front end of the water pump and the other hand hanging onto the barely holding wrench if you have one, or what ever else may be helpful (maybe the horn bracket?) helping to hold everything together and rotating counterclockwise? See it the bolt will follow the pump? Chances are pretty good it will?
That has worked for me twice many years ago with very similar inaccessible bolt heads on T water pumps.

With the rear bolt out, and once the forward bolt breaks loose, the front of the water pump can be raised and lowered without turning the bolt such that an open end wrench can hold the bolt in downward turns and then be pulled out and repositioned for additional downward thrusts.

That is how I have done a couple of them.


Then again? Some people have such great respect (I say, that is a joke son!) for water pumps on model T Fords that you should take a fresh hack saw or die grinder and start cutting off bits and pieces of the water pump until you have easy access to that bolt. If my first plan did fail? That IS what I would do next.

I would spray some penetrating oil on the bolt and horn bracket and TRY to pull and rotate the bracket counterclockwise itself to gain access to the bolt with a open end wrench. A little propane heat wouldn't hurt either.

Is there a case there a water pump is beneficial? Many were added back in the day. Seems like added complication if not needed.

I would remove the hose and water pipe to see if it could be accessed from under the water pump. If they got it on there you can get it off.

“There may be an on'off reason for the Phillips looking + on the head of the bolt.”

The bolt is a Place Bolt. The grooves provide a self locking feature.

Use a thin wall socket, and a flat low profile socket driver lever. There are many types and shape of flat handles, you can modify one if needed too.

I would not destroy the water pump. There is no need to, and they do have their uses. With some patience, you can get the bolt out using one or more of the excellent suggestions above. As for the water pump, if you don't want it, you might offer it for sale here, or put in on a shelf out of the way with a tag identifying what it is attached. Water pumps can be a useful addition to any T used in hot climates or mountain terrain, or long parades, and they're good accessory for a TT truck that is used in parades or to do work, especially in mountain terrain or hot country. They can also be used to get more service out of an old radiator. The type pump you have will not give trouble if the bushings are good and the right kind of packing is used, and the pump not run dry, which will destroy the packing. A water pump is best used with a suitable thermostat to prevent over-cooling. Using a water pump will prevent boil over and extend valve life in engines that are often run under load. If the packing is kept in good order, steam pockets are eliminated and engine cooling is more uniform, especially around the exhaust valves and ports when the engine is running hard. I'd want one on a T-based doodlebug tractor, too.

Perhaps the cuts in the head of the bolt were for a Pillips

1st thing- I am always apperecitave and amazed by the help here. I will try all the suggestions. The pump seized, so I think it gets binned.

Thanks

There is always the time honored method, or dis-honored if you prefer, use a cold chisel. Hit the bolt head with the chisel in order to spin the bolt in a counter clockwise direction to loosen or remove it.

I bet he bent the horn bracket out of the way, tightened the nut, and bent it back into place. You could do the opposite to gain better access to the bolt head.

I’m interested in the water pump as I want to install a heater in my 26 coupe!!

Hi Allan,
I was first into motorcycles & many of the guys were into British bikes so I had to learn English to work with them. ( the USA & the UK are
divided by a common language & some of us yank's don't understand the Queens English) Just wanted to make sure no one was left behind.
Some of us would be lost if told to clamp the little end in the vice & turn the screw anticlockwise to remove the gudgin pin.
Craig.

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2024 10:49 am

Perhaps the cuts in the head of the bolt were for a Pillips

They most definitely are not.

kmatt2 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2024 11:54 am

There is always the time honored method, or dis-honored if you prefer, use a cold chisel. Hit the bolt head with the chisel in order to spin the bolt in a counter clockwise direction to loosen or remove it.

Do NOT do that unless you want to break out the bolt hole in your engine block casting.

ouch!

It's clearly not impossible. Someone got the bolt in there, so someone can certainly get it out. If need be, bend the horn bracket out of the way. Maybe grind down a wrench to get in there. With the other bolt removed, you only need to turn the problem bolt a tiny bit in order to rotate the whole pump assembly CCW and also to swivel the horn bracket further out of the way. I suspect if you started with it at the beginning of this posting it'd be out by now.

Thomas Miller posted correctly above:

What Are Place Bolts?

Place bolts are self-locking, free-spinning hex head bolts that prevent loosening due to vibration. While other bolts’ locking abilities reside in their threads, Place bolts are unique in that their heads are responsible for the locking action. This is an important quality because it not only produces up to seven times more vibration resistance than conventional hex head cap screws, but it also makes the bolts reusable — giving you the ability to loosen and re-tighten them without any loss of locking.

There are currently three different types of Place bolts on the market, including:

AA Place bolts – The original design, invented by Charles Place back in the mid 1950s, which includes a symmetrical six-slot head with an undercut.
B Place bolts – Wilson-Garner’s improved Place bolt design, featuring a five-slot asymmetrical head with an undercut.
BH Place bolts – Wilson-Garner’s further improved Place bolt design, featuring the same five-slot asymmetrical head and undercut as B Place bolts, but with an oversized head.

https://wilsongarner.com/what-are-place-bolts-used-for/

https://wilsongarner.com/how-asymmetric ... olts-work/

RecklessKelly wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2024 5:50 am

Is there a case there a water pump is beneficial? Many were added back in the day. Seems like added complication if not needed.

Perhaps on a stationary engine or a heavily-loaded TT. If a water pump is added to a regular Model T it is likely an attempt to correct an overheating problem which is caused by something else. Murphy's law would indicate that the real issue is the radiator, because it's the most expensive part in the cooling system. If I can operate my Model T here in SW Florida on a 90+ degree day without any overheating issues (and I do), a model T with a good cooling system can operate with no cooling issues anywhere where a sane Human would want to go.

In the southern part of the country we have pawn shops that generally have loose wrenches/spanners & sockets that are sold by the piece. I frequent shops like this when I need a specific socket or wrench that may require some cobbling for a specific purpose. Generally speaking those type items are about a dollar each. The bonus is many times I find Snap On & Craftsman stuff in the assorted boxes of orphan tools. Those I generally don’t cobble with but the non brand ones are are open season for tweaking to the need.
Best John

The junk shop in my former town had shelves of dollar items including tools. I brought a bunch for that purpose.
Since Place bolts came around in the 50's thats probably about when the pump was added.

If the pump is stuck it is not likely to be a serious problem.

Just how do place bolts achieve their anti vibration abilities? If they lock in place as advised, why is the head drilled for safety wire? I am not quite with the program.

Water pumps for a T do have uses. The best one is as a conversation piece when used as a wheel chock when parked.

Allan from down under.

Allan wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2024 6:06 pm

Just how do place bolts achieve their anti vibration abilities?

Allan from down under.

There are several websites that explain just exactly how they work.

Allan wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2024 6:06 pm

Just how do place bolts achieve their anti vibration abilities? If they lock in place as advised, why is the head drilled for safety wire? I am not quite with the program.

Water pumps for a T do have uses. The best one is as a conversation piece when used as a wheel chock when parked.

Allan from down under.

Explanation here:

https://wilsongarner.com/how-asymmetric ... olts-work/

Thomas is correct. More zoom & filtering

I’ve been wrenching on everything from wind-up alarm clocks to airplanes for around 60 years and I’d never heard of a Place bolt until today. Dad used to say you should learn something new every day of your life; my lesson for today is Place bolts!

As for water pumps, I have one I removed from my ‘24 touring that turned out to be seized up tighter than Dick’s hat band that I’ll give away to anyone who wants to show up at my house to claim it.

Alot of GM flywheels used those critters.

It's out! Had to thin down the box end of the wrench. Parts on order from langs to convert it back to thermosiphon. Suprisingly, whoever installed the pump didn't also put in a thermostat

Thanks to all

Very interesting explanation about place bolts, never heard of them before. They sound very useful.

I'm glad you got the bolt out, The key to the thermosiphon system is a having a 100% good radiator. DO NOT use a thermostat. Good luck with your radiator. I had to buy two new flat tube radiators for my 1915 and 1926 $$$

You never want a thermostat on a thermosyphon system. There is no need for one, and it will not work correctly. On the other hand, any T with a water pump ought to have one, and it ought to have at least a 1/8" bypass hole in it.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 03, 2025 10:16 am

You never want a thermostat on a thermosyphon system. There is no need for one, and it will not work correctly. On the other hand, any T with a water pump ought to have one, and it ought to have at least a 1/8" bypass hole in it.

I've run 4 Model T's, each one with a water pump, none with thermostats, for 45 years. Thermostats have no place on any T.
My Model N has a water pump as well... and no thermostat either.

A T engine needs to run at 180F to about 200 F.

With a good radiator 180º - 200º is no problem. My 1915 once idled for about 20 minutes while I waited for someone, with no hint of overheating. No pump, of course.

I worked on cars from 1971 to 1978 and don't remember thermostats ranging to 200 degrees. Cars in the 1950s & 1960s mostly had 160 to 180
degree thermostats. I have seen them as low as 148 degrees for cars in the 1930 to 1940 years. Thermostat kits for model As still come with a 160 degree thermostats in them from some suppliers. In the 1970s they increased engine temps to contend with emissions and today many engines are
intended to run over 200 degrees for that reason. So when did we decide that model Ts need to run so hot? Has anyone run dyno tests on model
Ts to determine the performance difference between 160 to 200 degrees? This inquiring mind would like to know.
Craig.

Craig Leach wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 03, 2025 7:23 pm

So when did we decide that model Ts need to run so hot?
Craig.

It was decided for us.

Ford Motor Company pointed out that the T engine ran most efficiently at just under the boiling point. A thermosyphon system will not circulate much volume until the engine reaches about 180F. A thermostat will typically begin to open at its nominal temperature. Engine operating temperature will not precisely follow the thermostat's nominal temperature under most operating conditions. A T cooling system in good condition with a water pump added is capable of over-cooling the engine under some operating conditions. A thermostat will prevent that.

Vehicles with non-pressurized cooling systems typically have lower temperature thermostats, and some applications specified a "winter" stat and a "summer" stat. Use of alcohol based anti-freeze required the use of a low temp thermostat to prevent boil-off of the alcohol. One reason why pressurized systems became common was to allow higher operating temperatures for increased efficiency and reduced crankcase moisture and fuel dilution.In addition, higher specific output engines required higher capacity cooling systems to handle extreme conditions, and running the system at a higher operating temperature allowed getting rid of more heat with a radiator of about the same size.

The water "pump" that I removed from my 1915 touring was not a true pump as it just had a little "s" shaped paddle that just stirred the water to get the thermosyphon action going. It leaked even after I replaced the packing. I removed it and now use it for a wheel chock. Also, don't try to keep the water level all the way to the top.

I don't think any automotive water pumps are positive displacement. One reason the accessory pumps and the factory pumps on the Model A and other early cars and were of low capacity is that the cooling systems were non-pressurized systems. If you put a high volume pump on such a system, the pump is likely to force water out the radiator overflow at high engine speeds, especially if the radiator is the least bit restricted. Also, a water pump won't pump hot water at atmospheric pressure very well. If the water is hot, any significant suction on the inlet side of the pump will cause steam bubbles and cavitation, which you do not want.

If the device you had used mechanical power to move the coolant, it is a pump.

Craig Leach wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 03, 2025 7:23 pm

I worked on cars from 1971 to 1978 and don't remember thermostats ranging to 200 degrees. Cars in the 1950s & 1960s mostly had 160 to 180
degree thermostats. I have seen them as low as 148 degrees for cars in the 1930 to 1940 years. Thermostat kits for model As still come with a 160 degree thermostats in them from some suppliers. In the 1970s they increased engine temps to contend with emissions and today many engines are
intended to run over 200 degrees for that reason. So when did we decide that model Ts need to run so hot? Has anyone run dyno tests on model
Ts to determine the performance difference between 160 to 200 degrees? This inquiring mind would like to know.
Craig.

The main reason for the lower coolant temperatures on older cars was that they didn't have pressurized cooling systems and often used alcohol-based anti-freeze. Craig is correct in saying that engine temperatures had to be increased due to emissions requirements - particularly CO. A side benefit of the higher temperatures was less sludge formation.
FWIW - On my '27 the coolant typically comes out of the engine at about 170 or so degrees. That's on a upper 80 degree day. Since I replaced the radiator about ten years ago, it has never overheated - even once.

Higher operating temperatures offer less sludge, less carbon, better fuel efficiency, and (usually) less emissions. Modern oil and pressurized systems allow higher operating temperatures than are practical with non-pressure systems and plain water coolant.1920s motor oil might not stand up well at higher temperatures, and low octane fuel could give trouble, too.

If I remember correctly, my Dad's 1966 Oldsmobile 88 had a 192F thermostat. It has a 425 CID 310 HP engine with air conditioning. Pressure cap is probably 12 or 14 PSI.

I would like to apologize for turning a bolt removal post into a water pump vs thermosyphon post. I don't think I started it but I stepped in it.
I'm going to guess that my perspective on cooling systems is tempered by the fact that I have lived in the desert 99.5% of my life. As far as
ambient Temps go it was almost 80 degrees yesterday. Many of us drive year round so if your T is @ 200 degrees when you get stuck in multiple
long traffic lights trying to cool a T with 150 degree air rising off the pavement you will be in trouble if you don't have a good cooling system.
As far as pumping hot water & cavitation go you will never get a water pump on a T to to pull a high enough inlet volume to reduce the
pressure enough to change the boiling point of water to produce steam. Most T water pumps pull/push water from the lower outlet on the
radiator & if the water coming out of the radiator is that close to boiling the engine is already lost. Pressurized cooling systems came about in
the latter 1950s when 2 ton cars with high compression 200 HP V8s became commonplace. Sludge is as more a result of poor quality oil,
poor maintenance & poor driving habits than operating temp is. And if thermosyphon is not effective until the water is 180 degrees then that
should not be a issue to start. On my run stand I have a clear upper radiator hose & you can see a marked difference between a T engine water
circulation with & without a water pump. I hope everyone understands this is my opinion derived from my observation & experience & is not
meant to undermine or diminish anyone else's.
Craig.

My T runs hotter in 100F+ weather plus than in cooler weather. It does not boil. It shows about 180 on the road at 40 MPH in cooler weather. In very hot weather, it shows about 200F. The gauge may not be accurate, but the car never boils over. Berg radiator, no water pump.

Hot water can cavitate in the pump itself, especially if the radiator is restricted. High altitude can aggravate the condition. If the pump seal leaks, it will lead to problems.

I would like to apologize for turning a bolt removal post into a water pump vs thermosyphon post. I don't think I started it but I stepped in it.

Ha ha! Topic changes like this sounds like the usual result of chewing the fat whenever old car folks meet up, at least in our neck of the woods

Most of the roads around me are 45mph no one drives that slow so it is safest if you can keep up. My T's can do that @ under 180 unless stuck in
traffic. This year we had 143 days 100 or over with 70 of those days over 110. I think we are talking about aeration in respect to water pumps
on model T's & early autos? I think Adrian hit the nail on the head.
Craig.

Naples, Florida has never had an official 100 degree day.

What about "heat index"? We have both humid and dry heat here. When the humidity is up, the thermometer usually doesn't go above 96 to 98, with heat indexes well over 100. But if the air is dry, the thermometer will often go over 100, and 105 to 108F or more is not rare. Under those conditions, the heat index is often well under 100. It was 65F this morning at 4 AM. It's 34F now, and falling fast, and expected to go down to 18 to 20 F tonight.

I've purchased some surprisingly good used wrenches at pawn shops. Some of the lesser value ones might be had for a quarter.

I have had string-packed water pumps leak air in at higher engine speeds and not leak water out when stopped. That does a great job of simulating a boilover with a non-pressurized system, even when the engine never actually reaches 212. It's also a good way to crack a valve seat.