MTFCA Forum

Anybody know the story on this?
https://www.facebook.com/share/1Bq5oeY2 ... tid=wwXIfr

Well, that's interesting! I don't know if it's from a Model B, (my guess is that it's not), but the legs that it's mounted on are definitely from The Henry Ford Museum. They are same as the legs that came with the prototype N engine and the "removeable head" NRS engine on display at Piquette. Both of those were ex-HFM engines as well. And of course, the paperwork in the FB ad confirms the same provenance. However, the description of the Model B engine does not really match the engine in the ad. The description mentions copper clad cylinders, for one thing. This engine has no cylinders. Model B engines had the valves on the opposite side of the engine. This engine has only 4 pushrods???

Perhaps our forum Model B owner will add his knowledge to this...

I thought you would have some insight here. Obviously the seller likes it quite a bit, but I thought it was interesting.

I saw this last year, it was for sale for 50k. I'm sure Jerry is correct, it's from Ford likely sold in one of the auctions years ago. I'd guess it's around 1904, they must have been experimenting with an atmospheric valve.

I spoke with Rob Heyen about this engine just yesterday, he said that it is indeed a Model B engine, probably prototype and there is a possibility that it is an Air Cooled B engine, very rare but since none of the jugs are there it could just be a normal B engine. He sent me some files on it. If there is more interest in it I suggest a post be made in the Pre-T Ford section of the forums.

Back around 1978, the Henry Ford Museum hired a new head curator that decided that the museum needed to "get rid of all the junk" cluttering up the place.
Among the items auctioned off was the crystal punch bowl that Henry won in the race with the "999". Today, no one knows its location or even if it still exists.
The engine pictured above was, most likely, solid at that auction. There was a large cache of early, experimental engines found stored in the schoolhouse at Greenfield Village. This included the experimental NRS engine with the removable head mentioned above, and possibly the experimental "X" configuration engine that was slated to be used in the replacement for the "T" that never got beyond the early engineering stage.
I believe that some of the records exist from the auction but I have no idea how to find, or access those records.

Modeltspaz.

modeltspaz wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 01, 2025 4:52 pm

Back around 1978, the Henry Ford Museum hired a new head curator that decided that the museum needed to "get rid of all the junk" cluttering up the place.
Among the items auctioned off was the crystal punch bowl that Henry won in the race with the "999". Today, no one knows it location or even if it still exists.

Modeltspaz.

That curator was Harold Skramstad,

I have always understood that the punchbowl disappeared long before the infamous auction. (I believe the auction was in the early 80's.)

I believe I saw the punchbowl at a fraternity party back in the 1980s. The punch tasted like old motor oil, now it all makes sense.

modeltspaz wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 01, 2025 4:52 pm

…This included the experimental NRS engine with the removable head mentioned above, and possibly the experimental "X" configuration engine that was slated to be used in the replacement for the "T" that never got beyond the early engineering stage.
Modeltspaz.

I think the “X” engine is at the Fair Lane estate.

Bud Melby from the Seattle area attended that auction and ended up being the largest purchaser of cars and artifacts. Over the auction days he spent just at 1 Millon dollars.

Of all of the things he purchased here are a few.

All of the castings and patterns for making the prewar Lincoln Zepher a rear engine V12. This package included a lot of documents referring to the collaboration of Edsel and Ferdinan Porche. Also included was a complete V12 engine and transaxle assembly all assembled.

Another Item Bud purchased was Henry Ford's grandchildren's V8 60 midget race car. For the 2002 Ford centennial THF borrowed the midget for display during that event.

One of the other cars Bud purchased for $25,000.00, a 1916 Mercedes Limo that was built for Kaiser Wilhelm ruler of Germany. He was assinated before the car was delivered. Henry Ford purchased the Mercedes in the mid '30s before WW2. Keep in mind Henry and the Third Reich was jointly exploring building a Volkswagen type car before the war.

Mercedes badly wanted the car for their museum and badgered Bud for a number of years. When Bud fell ill and had no possibility restoring the car he ended up selling it to Mercedes for 4.5 Millon US dollars.

Bud and I actually got the Mercedes started after a lot of fussing about. I believe it actually had a Messerschmidt Engine installed when the car was manufactured. The Mercedes was so huge when I stood in front of the car I could not easily see over the hood. I do remember the interior of the rear compartment was finished in burl wood and gold handles and fixtures and very rich fabrics.

Now that I look back Bud had a number of unusual engines, bits and pieces from the auction. At that time I had no interest in even investigating what they were or how complete they might have been. When Bub dies his family auctioned off and held sales to get rid of his collections.

frontyboy  

I

The Ford Motor Company had a long standing relationship with the Briggs Body Company before and after WW II. Briggs Body Company actually made three pre-production, prototype vehicles for the Lincoln Zephyr proposal to replace the Lincoln Model K.

Of the three, one was a full-size wooden mock-up. The other two were running, fully operational vehicles. Both were rear engine versions. The castings you speak of may be for the rear engined Lincoln Zephyr V-12 that never happened.

The photos of all three Zephyr prototypes look remarkably like the KDF Wagen that Ferdinand Porche became involved in just a few years later. However, the Lincoln prototypes were 4 doors and much larger.

Modeltspaz.

I don’t know if this is an air cooled ot water cooled engine. One thing it has, that wasn’t seen until Model NR and S, was a three point style motor mount system. It has front mounts to the front, and like a T, would have allowed more flex than the traditional four legs bolted to the side rails like the production B and K.

Ford had a prototype B air cooled motor and showed the car in Detroit in the spring of 1904. However, drawings of that car do not show atmospheric valves. Like that B prototype, this motor has smaller diameter pistons than the production Model B. The air cooled prototype B did have a three point mounting setup like this motor. It’s a mystery.

I’ll post a few pics. First, this motor. Notice the front motor mounting “legs.”

More air cooled B prototype info. The B had budget expenses as early as October 1903. Ford was already planning a 4 cylinder car when the Model A had only been on the market a few months.

This Detroit Free Press February 1904 article describes the air cooled 4 cylinder Ford: A more in depth description in the February 1904 “Horseless Age:”
Last, a FMC drawing of the air cooled jugs: Courtesy of THF, all rights apply.

Rob wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 14, 2025 10:21 am

More air cooled B prototype info. The B had budget expenses as early as October 1903. Ford was already planning a 4 cylinder car when the Model A had only been on the market a few months.

This Detroit Free Press February 1904 article describes the air cooled 4 cylinder Ford:
IMG_6066.jpeg

A more in depth description in the February 1904 “Horseless Age:”

IMG_6068.jpeg

IMG_6067.jpeg

Last, a FMC drawing of the air cooled jugs:
image0(2).jpeg
Courtesy of THF, all rights apply.

Thanks Rob. You made a believer of me. The Horseless Age depictions are very telling. I still don't understand the 4 pushrods, but the bolt-on camshaft housing is clearly shown, among other distinct, similar features.

Jerry,
Wish the jugs had not been “ lost.” The piston appears to be about a 1/4 smaller than the Horseless Age specs and I don’t know how to reconcile the mechanical valves (2) v. this motor’s atmospheric valves. Maybe a prototype of the prototype? 🫣
Cheers,
Rob