MTFCA Forum

I have seen a couple wheels re-spoked but didn't get involved enough to learn the process.

My passenger rear had three loose spokes and when I jacked up the car it turned into more than a couple.

I ended up depleting the supply of U shims I had access to (8) and the wheel tightened up just fine.

It now has a bit of side to side wobble.

driver side rear seemed fine... but it wasn't...

once the driver side was jacked up it has loose spokes and the hub end is also loose.

I plan to take both apart soon.

My spokes appear to be in excellent shape otherwise.

There seemed to be some sort of either wooden disc or some type of fibre washers/shims installed when the wheel was built, and they are falling apart causing the loose wheels

My question is...

does tightening up the hub end affect the wheel "wobbling".

I do believe with the correct metal shims I can tighten up the wheel sufficiently, but I will also be prepared to replace the spokes.

From what you describe it is time for new spokes.

Humblej wrote: ↑

Tue May 06, 2025 9:45 am

From what you describe it is time for new spokes.

under $300 for the spokes for both wheels... What if anything should I use for assembly shims?

I need to figure out my tenon size... I'll do that tonight..... I will not assume both sides are the same....

It does look like I need a wheel puller too.... is this the one? https://www.modeltford.com/item/2800WP.aspx

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Tue May 06, 2025 10:24 am

You don't specify what kind of wheels you have, but I suspect this will cover them:
https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG108.html

Yes, that's the rear wheel puller for cars. Be sure you clamp it tight before you apply pressure.

They are the 21" I do believe they are called split rim, demountable.....

I have a beautiful red pinstripe around the cab of my car, I'm considering painting the rim red, with natural spokes, or even a red pin stripe on the black rim, with either black or natural spokes... I think all red spokes and rim would be too much....


Of course I would need to do the same to the front wheels.... I'm scared to jack up the front end to check those.... they seem fine with the cars weight on them.... but so did the driver rear....

Wooden wheels are very strong, but only when they are tight.
I would HIGHLY recommend checking the front wheels too! Wood wheels are strong front to back, but side to side, if loose, they can collapse. Being the steering wheels (quite literally) they take a lot of side load going around corners. Now is the time, if time and finances permit. The car is already apart, and your setting up to do the rears, so why not the fronts.
I refinished the spokes on my T over the winter and documented my experiences and posted them a month or so ago on the forum. It was my first time too, I only replaced 2 spokes, but I'm in the process of doing another set now, fully respoking them.
For me, torquing the hub bolts down tight really helped true up the wheels, before I was told my rear wheels wobbled quite a bit. They are a lot straighter now.
Good luck and have fun, after all, that's what the hobby is for.

viewtopic.php?p=358968

I didn’t jack up the fronts yet but they are sooper tight. I’ll jack them up in a couple minutes.

I pulled both rear and measured the tenons and it looks like both sides are the same so I’ll order 24 .530 tenon spokes and related hub bolts.

I’ll see if the club has a hub puller and save $80….

I made a video…. Or two or three..

https://youtu.be/aVEjvO1fVUA?si=ly78v3wQOhy-kZGY

This is the wobble… passenger side post shim drivers unshimmed.

Passenger

https://youtu.be/aht5CWRIjN8?feature=shared

Driver

https://youtu.be/3vdxp4JtVWw?feature=shared

The type of wheel is important to know before ordering. The early ones come in two sizes. 30"X3" non de-mountable on the front and 30"X3 1/2"
on the front. Later all 4 were de-mountable 30"x3 1/2". The early non de-mountable wheels had wood felloes and need to be built by a wheel wright. The de-mountable ones had steel felloes and could be re-spoked by ordering the ready made spokes and doing it with a spoke press. The later 21" wheels with the split rims had shorter spokes and could also be done at home by using a spoke press. A temporary fix is to glue some oak venier to every other spoke on side away from bolt hole to spread them out toward the rim and then use popsicle sticks around the hub to keep them pushed out toward the felloe. You need to check the spokes before every time you drive if they are shimmed because it could loosen up at any time so is best to re-spoke them too. The front wheels take sideways pressure when turning, especially at speed. The back wheels take both side way pressure when turning but front and back pressure from both the pull of the engine and the application of the brake. So best fix is new spokes.
Norm

If you can, it is always best to send an old spoke to the person making new spokes for you. That way you know you will get the correct size.

Remove BOTH rear wheels and tighten the hub bolts and peen them. Check and make sure that none of them are hitting the Rocky Mountain brakes.

I have my cart all ready to process,

24 spokes
12 hub bolts
12 nuts
hub puller

looks like I'm out just over $400 with shipping

I think I'll paint the spokes black, and either pinstripe the rim red or completely paint the rim red?

I think the pinstripe will look best, maybe fancy pinstripe on the spokes...

I wish I could find a wheel puller tonight, I may use the loosen the nut trick on the drivers side, and check the hub bolts.

I would imagine I paint the spokes prior to installing.

I have watched a couple videos and I'm not seeing any shims or spacers being installed when re-spoking....

I found this cobbled monstrosity of a wheel puller and I kind of like the aesthetic value, I may buy this one...

WillyR wrote: ↑

Wed May 07, 2025 10:38 am

I have watched a couple videos and I'm not seeing any shims or spacers being installed when re-spoking....

Right. Those are "band-aid" fixes that you avoid by using new spokes.

Have you actually tried to remove the wheels yet? Too often, they're already loose. Once you have the wheels/hubs off the axles, post some pictures of the axles and their keyways. You need all of this to be in good condition to be trouble-free & safe.

Shims are used to get more life out of loose/bad spoked wheels. A correctly tight respoked wheel has no shims.

The puller you show is a light duty period tool. The pinch is very important to not pulling/stripping hub threads. Best to find a Ford Z puller with very good threads. They come up for sale here occasionally. I see Langs offers a repop of that tool. If faithfully reproduced, its the one.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Wed May 07, 2025 10:57 am

Shims are used to get more life out of loose/bad spoked wheels. A correctly tight respoked wheel has no shims.

The puller you show is a light duty period tool. The pinch is very important to not pulling/stripping hub threads. Best to find a Ford Z puller with very good threads. They come up for sale here occasionally. I see Langs offers a repop of that tool. If faithfully reproduced, its the one.

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Wed May 07, 2025 10:42 am

WillyR wrote: ↑

Wed May 07, 2025 10:38 am

I have watched a couple videos and I'm not seeing any shims or spacers being installed when re-spoking....

Right. Those are "band-aid" fixes that you avoid by using new spokes.

Have you actually tried to remove the wheels yet? Too often, they're already loose. Once you have the wheels/hubs off the axles, post some pictures of the axles and their keyways. You need all of this to be in good condition to be trouble-free & safe.

Good to know, I was tempted to try and find some shims for the new install.

I think I mentioned it previously but there are some type of wood or fibre washers on the rear spokes now. they seem to be disintegrating and I'm certain that is the source of the problem....

The fronts don't seem to have any washers/shims/spacers at all, and they are in excellent health...

I tried to remove the driver side but not the passenger side. I'm happy with the tightness of the passenger side, but it has a little wobble as seen in the above video, but after installing 8 shims I'll be happier with a re-spoke.

If tightening the hub on the driver side would get me mobile I'd drive it to work until my spokes arrive.......

the axles seem solid, floating hubs were installed not too many miles ago.

I should just buy the new tool at langs, but I love old beat up and abused tools...

The movement in your spokes scares me. Use of shims and the like are just bandaid fixes. If the spokes are truly loose, you need new spokes. For the price difference, I prefer to have my wheels re-spoked by a professional and send mine to Noah Stuzman in Ohio. If you're going to do your own spokes you'll need a spoke press as well, and getting the right spoke length is critical.

If your wheel is loose on the axle, you could have a whole bunch of other problems. What does the taper and keyway on the axle look like? Is the hub or the taper so worn that you need a shim (available from vendors) or a new axle or hub? Do you have modern seals or the old felt type? Regardless, when you put a rear wheel on they have to be tight, tight, tight....like 90 ft-lbs or more. They also need to be checked after driving the first 50 miles or so after install.

Another thing to watch, sometimes a spoke looks good but the tenons can be rotten. A good side load and they can fail. I've attached a couple of pix showing what a tenon should look like and one that is rotten and ready to fail. I whacked such a spoke with a rubber mallet and it sheared right off.

I have always wondered how with store bought spokes you know the hole for hub is in the center of the wheel?

The guy I used for wheels would install spokes then bore the hole true to wheel. His wheels were always the best running wheels. Dan

Dan Hatch wrote: ↑

Wed May 07, 2025 11:26 am

I have always wondered how with store bought spokes you know the hole for hub is in the center of the wheel?

The guy I used for wheels would install spokes then bore the hole tire to wheel. His wheels were always the best running wheels. Dan

I have also wondered about how tight the hubs fit into the center hole.

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑

Wed May 07, 2025 11:16 am

The movement in your spokes scares me. Use of shims and the like are just bandaid fixes. If the spokes are truly loose, you need new spokes. For the price difference, I prefer to have my wheels re-spoked by a professional and send mine to Noah Stuzman in Ohio. If you're going to do your own spokes you'll need a spoke press as well, and getting the right spoke length is critical.

If your wheel is loose on the axle, you could have a whole bunch of other problems. What does the taper and keyway on the axle look like? Is the hub or the taper so worn that you need a shim (available from vendors) or a new axle or hub? Do you have modern seals or the old felt type? Regardless, when you put a rear wheel on they have to be tight, tight, tight....like 90 ft-lbs or more. They also need to be checked after driving the first 50 miles or so after install.

Another thing to watch, sometimes a spoke looks good but the tenons can be rotten. A good side load and they can fail. I've attached a couple of pix showing what a tenon should look like and one that is rotten and ready to fail. I whacked such a spoke with a rubber mallet and it sheared right off.
IMG_2706.jpgIMG_2707sm.jpg

Yeah the band aid fixes aren't for me, it's cheap enough to re-spoke vs wrecking my bee-you-tee-ful car.

the spokes are loose on the hub flange, the hubs feel very solid.

the tenons on the spokes are in good shape on both wheels.

I'm confident re-spoking myself. I'm more worried about making them look pretty with paint and pinstriping than the actual job...

uhggg.... Langs, does not have the puller in stock.... but the spokes and nuts and bolts are.... order placed...

I put an offer in on the ebay monstrosity puller..... I'll try the loosening the nut trick tonight....

I reckon I'll just get some gloss black krylon enamel spray paint for the spokes.

I'll see what kind of pinstriping kit I can get on the amazons, but I can do that at any time after my wheels are built.

much of that money was set aside for a set of spare coils, and my itimer fund.....

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Wed May 07, 2025 12:07 pm

Rather than waste time and effort on shims and other Band-Aids, re-spoke. Ford wheels had galvanized (zinc-plated) rims and were painted body color. You can get creative if you want, but if you show or sell the car that will be a problem.

I'm going to do a single red pinstripe on the black portion of the wheel to match the body pinstripe, and black spokes.

The de-mountable rim is grey/silver/natural.

All my parts are on the way for a re-spoke.

I don’t have a full on side picture but the wheels and body stripe are here





I think snyders may have had the puller in stock, I didn't call, but it would have been $15 shipping + tax.... so just over $100

I bought the ebay fubared puller for $63.29 shipped.... I'll make it work....

I've had really good luck with Rustoleum Black Automotive paint. If you want to pinstripe, you might try a Beugler pinstriping tool
One shot lettering paint https://www.beugler.com/

I drove her around the block once and the wheel didn’t budge so I took in a figure 8 around 3 blocks and it came loose.

I think I’ll prefer the puller for the future…


The hub nuts are loose as hell and I imagine the other side is too…

I’m glad I opted for new hardware with the new spokes.

That appears to be some type of "safety" hub - should have been a set screw in the grease cup location.

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Wed May 07, 2025 9:50 pm

That appears to be some type of "safety" hub - should have been a set screw in the grease cup location.

Yes, those are the floating hubs that make this axle illegal for the Montana 500….

The inside of these spokes look like they rubbed on the rm brake hardware too, but not as bad as the other side.


I tightened up the hub bolts and this wheel is completely tight now.

I will take the other side off tomorrow and tighten them up too.

Why would floating hubs be illegal for the Montana 500 race? I thought that safety hubs were used to make sure the wheel did not detach from the vehicle in the event of an axle failure. Is this not correct?

OilyBill wrote: ↑

Wed May 07, 2025 10:31 pm

Why would floating hubs be illegal for the Montana 500 race? I thought that safety hubs were used to make sure the wheel did not detach from the vehicle in the event of an axle failure. Is this not correct?

I’m not sure why, I only recently found out about it and will be building a car for it.

So far my car doesn’t qualify due to the Z head and the floating hubs. But shocks are allowed. And I don’t have them, and not sure I want them…

The record for average speed is 55 mph…. I can’t imagine…. My max so far is under and around 50mph and that was scary.

Tighten those hub bolts on both sides and peen them then check the tightness of the spokes again. I can't see the previous owner not respoking before having floating hubs installed. I watched your videos and your spokes seem fine other than the VERY loose hub bolts. Be sure to address that scraping noise you talked about. this is just my opinion, bobt

My max so far is under and around 50mph and that was scary.

Same here. I once did 50 mph briefly to see if I could. It's not for me. You don't go that fast in an ordinary stock T. It takes special attention to all parts of steering and suspension to make that kind of speed acceptable.

bobt wrote: ↑

Thu May 08, 2025 5:39 am

Tighten those hub bolts on both sides and peen them then check the tightness of the spokes again. I can't see the previous owner not respoking before having floating hubs installed. I watched your videos and your spokes seem fine other than the VERY loose hub bolts. Be sure to address that scraping noise you talked about. this is just my opinion, bobt

@bobt yeah the spokes do look quite nice and I don’t suspect them being original to the car.

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE!!!!


I called to cancel my spoke order this morning.


The hub on the passenger side was loose too.

I tightened them up and I’m extremely happy with the results for now.


The hub bolts appear to have had some sort of peening but it wasn’t aggressive enough.

I don’t have a proper punch so I’m stopping by harbor freight after work tomorrow.

My eBay wheel puller won’t arrive until Saturday so I did the full turn and figure 8 around the block trick again. I will prefer the puller in the future.

When I called Langs to cancel the order, they seemed happy it was just hub bolts, and they asked if they had been peened.

I will plan for a re-spoke in the future but it’s not an emergency now.

I will pretend I already spent the money and go ahead and purchase the set of coils I was planning on.

I extremely happy all I lost out on was driving the T to work this week. And no real damage to the car was done.

I am inspired to do the single matching pinstripe on the black rim of the wheel.

I found the cab pinstripe colour is called “carmine” and a company called revell makes a can of it with enough left over for me to practice with.

The cab colour may have actually mixed by the gentleman who did it years ago, so I’ll possibly go down the rabbit hole of matching it exactly.

A lot of work for a subtle change…

Love this car…

PLEASE. Drive your T like it is a T and not like a p---ed off teenager. Drive your T like it has no brakes even though you have Rockies. Rockies also don't do well in reverse or holding at a stop on a hill. Model T brakes are called P&P brakes. PUSH and PRAY!! Avoid high speed turns with any wooden wheel vehicle. Did you find the scraping noise? Peen the hub bolts with a ball PEEN hammer. bobt

Oh yeah. Torque your rear axle nuts to 100 foot pounds. bobt

I'll be building a Montana 500 car to abuse, this one gets babied but she will get lots of miles put on her.

the rockies are just a safety net, the biggest impediment to driving safely are on their phone while driving.

Since the passenger rear wheel has shims, I will add the spokes to my next big order, from one of the major vendors, but again it's something to watch and prepare for rather than an emergent fix.

I have the torque wrench out and ready for tonight...

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Fri May 09, 2025 12:53 pm

When the subject of extra brakes comes up, many people assume that means Rockies. You might also consider AC, and study how the two systems are different.

In NM you have some long, steep places where a Ruckstell would come in handy.

I have not heard of AC brakes, I'm looking those up now..


I do have a ruckstell on my wish list, for my daily driver.

I'm not going to put one on my montana car, but will put some kind of supplemental braking...

" Sure Stop" disk brakes are the best but I HATE the way they look. bobt

bobt wrote: ↑

Fri May 09, 2025 5:41 pm

" Stop Sure" disk brakes are the best but I HATE the way they look. bobt

Are those the ones with the wilwood calipers?

Those look very practical, but yes, out of place.

I can’t say I won’t ever consider a set…

Tonight I torqued the hub bolts on the passenger side and double dot peened each one.

I attempted to get the driver side off but I would have had to loosen and figure 8 around the block again.

My wheel puller is due in tomorrow so I’ll pull it tomorrow.

I already have it tight just not torqued and peened.

I have less than 30 miles to travel tomorrow morning so it will hold until then.

I realized I’m not sure if there is anything special about the hub nuts.

I snugged them to seat the wheel then backed off to the nearest cotter pin hole.

I’ll be re checking after my morning trip.

I had found a thread here that had a neat picture of just two spots punch peened and now I can’t find the thread or the picture…

So I stole this picture from another thread on the forum…

I just did the two on the passenger side..

Probably just do two on the driver side too.

Mine isn’t as pretty as this…

Peening the hub bolts is meant to do two things, one more important than the other. First, it is to stop the nuts from falling off if they become loose.
More importantly, peening should be sufficiently aggressive enough to actually stop the nuts from loosening in the first place. To my knowledge, the hub bolts supplied by the vendors are all the same length. If they are long enough to peen over when used on the rear wheels with the brake drum in place, they will be too long for the front wheels. They should have their length trimmed somewhat before peening. Any subsequent adjustment to the tension demands re-peening the bolts.

Allan from down under.

I use blue Loktite on all hub threads prior to peening. There is a thread lock product available to use and it's supposed to "wick" into the threads.

I think I recognize that photo. I don't always do them that well.

Willy,… As to your second-to-last sentence concerning “hub nuts” last night: if I may assume you’re referencing rear axle nuts; May I suggest you not tighten to a torque amount then ‘back off’ to a nearest cotter pin hole. Rather tighten TOWARD a cotter pin hole than finely adjust continued tightening until the axle hole lines up with the nut. Ford factory rear axle nut box wrenches were over 2’ long for super muscular mechanics to tighten the Snot out of those axle nuts.

Hallo .
One of our Wheels of our 1912 have some spooks who are a little loose .
What is the best way to repair that ???
My spooks appear to be in excellent shape
Thanks for your answer .

Toon

A red rim causes spokes to loosen much sooner than a black non demountable rim

My goal with my car was to have a car safe for extensive touring. If I wanted a car only for shows, I might take a different approach. I am very happy with floating hubs and hydraulic disc brakes. No adjustment required, pedal feels just like normal car brakes. I believe strongly in an independent braking system that does not rely on the transmission brakes. Unlike some of the available mechanical brakes, the discs work when wet and while moving forward or backing up.

George House wrote: ↑

Sat May 10, 2025 1:00 pm

Willy,… As to your second-to-last sentence concerning “hub nuts” last night: if I may assume you’re referencing rear axle nuts; May I suggest you not tighten to a torque amount then ‘back off’ to a nearest cotter pin hole. Rather tighten TOWARD a cotter pin hole than finely adjust continued tightening until the axle hole lines up with the nut. Ford factory rear axle nut box wrenches were over 2’ long for super muscular mechanics to tighten the Snot out of those axle nuts.

Yes the nuts holding the wheel on.

I wasn’t sure what the specs were on those, I planned to look it up before buttoning it all up.

NEVER BACK A CASTLE NUT TO LINE UP THE SPLIT PIN HOLE!!!!
GO ON TO THE NEXT ONE.
I always use the Ford specs for torque on T nuts.
Tighten til just before you strip it out.

If you just can't get to the next cotter pin hole, then remove the nut and grind a little bit off of the backside, then thread it back on and try again. Don't bust a nut, (so to speak), straining for the next cotter pin slot. To see some of this advice, it may appear that you can't possibly go too tight. Yes, you can...

I don’t have a torque wrench that goes up that high so I tapped hammered to the next cotter pin hole until I can pick up a wrench on Monday.

My wheel puller got delayed in Texas so hopefully it will be here Monday as well.

Hub nuts and axle nuts are two different animals. bobt

I appreciate all y’all except one of you, and I think you know who you are…


The pinstriping stuff might end up costing me more than paying someone to do it…

The brushes are cheap enough but enough paint to do the job AND enough to practice with can get pricey.

But I have spent more money on stoopider stuff.

Willy. The only problem I see with your FUBAR Ebay rear wheel puller is that the bolt has been replaced with that bent over thing. The original bolt allows you to, once everything is good and tight, you can whack the original bolt head with a BFH and that's when they usually "pop" off. bobt

Well it’s finally out for delivery, so we shall see how it works, I’m certain I can find some place to whack it with a hammer. If need be I’ll buy a bolt that fits it.




I got this torque wrench made for lug nuts with a 1/2” drive. It can be set from 80-160lbs in 20lb increments.

And since I didn’t have any sockets that big I got a set of 1/2” impact sockets.

Now I got to think of what else I need to spend money on.

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Sun May 11, 2025 3:20 pm

This discussion is a nice tonic for old guys who gripe that young folks have no interest in old stuff. My mental list of young Model T folks is getting too long for me to remember all of it. I may have been the only kid in my high school who cared about history and relics from earlier times, so seeing Willy and other young folks involved is a great pleasure. Carry on.

My 65 fairlane was only 22-25 years old when I was in high school.

The new wheel puller worked fabulously, the bent bolt had plenty of travel and leverage, the wheel just popped right off.


I set the torque wrench to 100 and it went about 3 slots past where I had it. 120 added a almost a 4th slot, 120 got it on that slot with a little more oomph, but I doubt it was 140.

The hub bolts are now all tightened and punch peened, I’ll keep an eye out for any loosening.

Spare set of coils , I-timer and the ruckstell are next on the list…

Leave the hubcap off the rear wheels to remind you to check the tension on the axle nuts once you have done a few trips/miles. Things settle in after a bit of use. You may get another slot or two.

Allan from down under.

Willy. Be sure to realize that a Ruckstell is a mid range drive and not an overdrive. That's a lot of $$$. bobt

bobt wrote: ↑

Tue May 13, 2025 5:22 am

Willy. Be sure to realize that a Ruckstell is a mid range drive and not an overdrive. That's a lot of $$$. bobt

Allan wrote: ↑

Tue May 13, 2025 1:30 am

Leave the hubcap off the rear wheels to remind you to check the tension on the axle nuts once you have done a few trips/miles. Things settle in after a bit of use. You may get another slot or two.

Allan from down under.

Yeah I have some mountainous areas I'd like to be able to visit, I was able to discern the ruckstell capabilities, after a little initial confusion as to what they do.

Just Sunday I had a long hill and I had to use low band to get up it. AND it's not the longest hill I want to tackle....

It's so dusty here I'm not leaving the caps off! There are a couple car shows this weekend and I'm not sure if I want to attend, I'll have 80 or so miles on her by friday and I'll check the torque on my friday night checklist...

about due for an oil change in the next week or two....