Securing Camshaft Seal in Timer Cover

[Distagon2]

I am planning to use the modern camshaft seal in my timing gear cover. However, it is quite loose in the bore. Not a huge amount, but loose enough and certainly not a press fit. What do y'all use/recommend for securing the seal? I have an idea, but wanted to check with the folks who have done this.

[RajoRacer]

I usually squeeze mine between a couple blocks of wood ever so slightly, a little at a time then check the fit.

[DanTreace]

Copious amount of good gasket sealer, the grey Right Stuff. Then wipe off the excess around the seal area.

That will fill gaps and seal from oil leakage.

Had to remove the previous modern seal in the foreground, due to just a tiny wipe of blue RTV, that allowed seepage.

[Pat Branigan Wisc]

You could possibly use a socket the correct size with a rounded edge and press the outer part of the seal to enlarge it. Or turn a piece to press into it if you have a lathe?

[Allan]

I had one so loose that I could fit a .002" brass shim around it to get a good fit. I cut the trip a little wider than the land in the front cover, curled it to fit in the hole and then fitted the seal. Simple job to lay the protruding edge of the shim back against the cover.

Allan from down under.

[JohnH]

Tried squeezing mine but looked like it was going to destroy it. So, I used shim and sealant.

[351cmach]

I usually squeeze mine between a couple blocks of wood ever so slightly, a little at a time then check the fit.

I did something similar to this. I squeezed mine between to large thick washers drawing it together with a bolt and nut. I measured the bore size and squeezed until I was just over the measurement.
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[BobUkPipedream]

I did mine last week. I tried the squeeze thing in a vice with wood, but it seemed very hard and did not want to move. I ended up using Sikaflex 221 to glue it in. It’s a polyurethane adhesive and usually the biggest problem with it is trying to get things apart again.

If I had seen that washers and threaded rod suggestion above, I would have done that and used a bit of Sikaflex.

I also did the crank seal with Sikaflex. I used Model A rope seals and then the modern seal glued on the outside between engine case and crank pulley. My crank pulley is one of those alloy split ones, so I had to dish it to get clearance to the seal.

I hope that all works, will find in a month or so when I start her up.

[RajoRacer]

I like the 2 washers & all thread Robert - good idea !!!

[John kuehn]

Are certain brand seals looser than others? The ones I’ve used seem to fit well and secure. Maybe the covers on T’s aren’t always exactly the same either. It wouldn’t take much to have too tight a fit.

[RajoRacer]

Not all covers are exactly uniform - that's why it's very important to use the "full circle" timing gauge to set your cover onto the block to center the timer/roller/gear to be concentric with the camshaft - using the small type that fits into the felt/seal recess can produce improper results.

[speedytinc]

Are certain brand seals looser than others? The ones I’ve used seem to fit well and secure. Maybe the covers on T’s aren’t always exactly the same either. It wouldn’t take much to have too tight a fit.

The recess is designed for a felt "seal". Nothing keeps the felt donut from turning, its retained by a thin sheet disk that is retained by the edge of the timer. I would expect a NOS cover to be an exact fractional size. Fits today will vary depending on wear.

[ModelTWoods]

I usually squeeze mine between a couple blocks of wood ever so slightly, a little at a time then check the fit.

I did something similar to this. I squeezed mine between to large thick washers drawing it together with a bolt and nut. I measured the bore size and squeezed until I was just over the measurement.
[image]20230219_112556.jpg[/image][image]20230219_112543.jpg[/image]

I like your idea, too. I was going to say treat the seal like a block freeze plug and instead of wacking it in the middle to spread, apply gentle, constant pressure to the face of the seal while the timing gear cover was off the motor, but I like your idea better.

[49willard]

This is an older thread but I am dealing with sealing the camshaft (as well as the crankshaft) in my 1912 touring having gone thru the engine with a lot of new and rebuilt parts. Based on the pictures in this thread it appears that the early timing cover varies in both the width of the cavity for the crankshaft seal and the design of the seal area for the camshaft such that my timing cover cannot accommodate the lip seal shown in the above posts. Note that I am new to the Model T community. Looking for suggestions on sealing both areas. I am rebuilding with a 4 dip pan which when checked on the pan checking table (whatever it is called) was excellent. That gives me the wide crankshaft seal groove at least in the pan. Langs no longer has the narrow rope seal, other suggestions?

[KWTownsend]

The 1912 engine uses a different timing gear cover than later cars. It was a U shaped channel and only the felt seal works in it, unless the cover is modified.

Any of the later, non-starter, timing gear covers from 1913-1919 will fit and can be used.

IIRC, there are different modern seal numbers for different years. Maybe based upon starter and non-starter cars. ?

On maybe I'm thinking abour main crankshaft seal. Narrow nose pan vs wide nose. I kniw there is a difference there!

I'm old schooled. I like to use Permatex #2.

YMMV

BTW, does your engine have the hump on the backside of the timing gear?

: ^ )

[49willard]

Keith, Thanks for responding
For the crankshaft I managed to successfully open up the U channel in the early timing cover and now have the wider rope seal (Model A seal?) in both the early cover and the later 4 dip pan. Looking for suggestions on the camshaft seal in the early timing cover.

On another subject that you helped me with I am working with a friend installing a new top and using the photos that you sent me, thanks!

[Allan]

William, the later timing covers for non generator cars already have the wide groove for the A model rope seal around the crankshaft. I try to find these whenever scrounging parts.

The camshaft hole can be machined to take the modern seal, and it should then be a light press fit.

Allan from down under.

[49willard]

Not sure that I want to machine my timing cover for the modern lip seal. When I took it apart there was no brass shield or evidence of one having been there. I guess that I do not understand a need in my case for a brass shield since any felt or whatever was original is fully contain in a 360 degree U shaped channel such that a seal cannot work its way out. Was there another design which just had a counterbore such that a seal could work its way forward and therefore the need for the brass shield?

[Allan]

Between the type with the enclosed U shaped groove into which a felt seal was stuffed, there was a second one with an open land for the cam seal but still with the narrow crankshaft seal groove. Once the open land was introduced, it made it much easier to fit the cam felt seal, and this was held in place by the brass, and later, steel cover held in place by the timer roller. These thin discs would wear, dispensing metal fragments inside the timer, not something widely appreciated.

Allan from down under.

[49willard]

Between the type with the enclosed U shaped groove into which a felt seal was stuffed, there was a second one with an open land for the cam seal but still with the narrow crankshaft seal groove. Once the open land was introduced, it made it much easier to fit the cam felt seal, and this was held in place by the brass, and later, steel cover held in place by the timer roller. These thin discs would wear, dispensing metal fragments inside the timer, not something widely appreciated.

Allan from down under.

Ok, that all makes sense now. I suspect that maybe the process of going away from the U channel to the open side on the front was to make felt seal replacement much easier, i.e. not requiring removal of the timing cover to replace the felt.
Thanks Allen!

Do you happen to know the years for the non generator cars having the wide U channel? I had a friend check a cover supposed to be 1917 which still had the narrow U channel.