MTFCA Forum

This was brought to me today to get running. The ninety year old owner said it was running when he shut it off. He shut it off in 1983. The engine is free but It has three stuck exhaust valves. I am soaking the valves and tops of pistons with KROIL. I will also try some 50/50 acetone and Automatic trans oil. I saw an old post by RV Anderson saying instead of tapping on top of the valve to turn the engine until the cam lobe is pointing down on the stuck valve and put a washer or a dime under the valve stem and turn the crank in order to push the valve up. The coils have been sent to be rebuilt, the carb and fuel tank have been cleaned. Whats the chance of the rings being stuck? I'm letting it all soak for a few days.

Rings are probably stuck. I'd keep soaking everything for a few more days, then rock the car back a forth in high gear to loosen the engine. Move it a little in each direction, and soak another day or two. Tap on the stuck valves with a screwdriver handle and keep soaking. Avoid forcing anything.

I would like to recommend for the valves any good penetrant and maybe a little touch from the torch to loosen them up. i'd go torch then penetrant. i used this method on a stuck A exhaust valve and it works well. just don't melt it. a little heat in the valve guide will work wonders in getting it loosened up. take the valve spring off to make it easier to get the valve to move. I'd also lap and adjust the valves if it has adjustable lifters.

Art Ebeling wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 15, 2025 8:53 pm

I saw an old post by RV Anderson saying instead of tapping on top of the valve to turn the engine until the cam lobe is pointing down on the stuck valve and put a washer or a dime on the cam and turn the crank in order to push the valve up.

I really would not do that. I can't see how a coin or a washer changes anything.

For one thing, you have 3 stuck valves. Chances are, you won't be able to turn the cam until the lobe is pointing down on any one of them because one of the other 2 stuck valves will most likely prevent it.

Since the head is off, the valves are stuck, and they are original two-piece valves. This looks like a perfect opportunity to grind the seats and lap in a new set of valves.

: ^ )

Keith

Art, it might help if you took down that big ugly sign with the other make of truck. The T is likely protesting, refusing to co-operate while that is still there

Allan from down under.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 15, 2025 8:59 pm

Rings are probably stuck. I'd keep soaking everything for a few more days, then rock the car back a forth in high gear to loosen the engine. Move it a little in each direction, and soak another day or two. Tap on the stuck valves with a screwdriver handle and keep soaking. Avoid forcing anything.

The engine is not stuck, it turns over but of course there is no compression with the three stuck valves. I changed my description of what was posted about freeing a valve. Art

Rocking the engine a few degrees forward and backward will tend to loosen stuck rings.

First as always I'll preface by saying/admitting I'm no mechanic but I do my best to learn from others. That said, if the engine "turns free", then how can there be "stuck rings" and yet have the engine turn freely....i.e. the pistons would move up and down? If rings are truly stuck, do you mean as in "stuck to the cylinder walls"? The engine wouldn't turn free then in my simple mind! Looking at the pic with the head off, and given the age, frankly I don't know why this poor tired engine isn't just a candidate for a full rebuild anyway. Looks to me like at least one water circulation port is plugged up also. Why piss around with beating on valves, etc. on an engine which is truly crying for a LOT of help!?!

Keith makes a valid point. If they are two piece valves they should be replaced. That means you can get rough with them. A pair of multt-grip pliers on the head will allow you to screw them about and let any penetrant work better. Just don't get so rough that you turn the head on the valve stem. I have had success using a side valve V8 valve lifter to lever out stuck, never to be used again T valves.

Allan from down under.

Rings can be stuck in the pistons. The way to know is to pull the pistons. Its a crap shoot as to if & when the rings will free themselves after running. I see rusty valve & piston tops. How do the bores look? What does the Babbitt look like? If you tear it down you will find other problems in the transmission. Is the oil funnel open?
Safe bet is a tear down, evaluation & repair @ a minimum.

Concerning that clogged water passage I started to see if I could break it loose and started to drill a small hole thru it but stopped when what I was drilling appeared hard and shiny. Would corrosion be that hard and have shiny metal shavings? It almost looks like a weld. I did get the valves unstuck, the two center ones by tapping and the rear one under the firewall that I could not straight down on the center by putting a penney on the lifter and turning the crank. That popped it up and then I could push it down. I did that about five times until the valve moved freely. I do plan on removing the oil pan inspection pan and pushing the pistons to check the rings out and checking the babbett.

Art

stop it

there is no hole there

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 16, 2025 11:26 am

Art

stop it

there is no hole there

I did stop, just made a scratch and thought it wasn't right. Thanks

Hi Art,
I think the first question is what is the expected result of this operation? To just get it running or is the owner wanting to start touring again?
Did the engine turn free? or did you have to force it to turn, can you see rust rings in the cylinder were the rings were stuck? Take the tappet
cover off & try prying up on the valves with a screw-driver? Gently of coarse. Try installing a short bolt in the block & use it for a lever to pry
down when there is space between the valve & the tappet. I have taken tappet covers off to find a mud-dobber city in the valley.
I had a call on a 14 ( engine seized ) Turns out the clutch was stuck together & 3 valves were stuck. Engine turned with the rear wheels off the
floor. Freed up the valves with lube & prying them up & down with a brake spoon ( through the plug hole & between the valve & tappet). Fired up & after running for 10 minutes the clutch freed up. Still running 2 years later.
Craig.

The Owner just wants it to run again. I will suggest new valves and inspect the rod babbit and pistons for stuck rings.

Art, while you have the plate off the bottom, remove the two threaded horse shoes too. You may be amazed by the amount of crud that can accumulate between them and the sides of the pan.

Allan from down under.

No disrespect to anyone but this is a perfect example of why the hobby is dying. The vendors have the parts and have gone to great expenses to make them for the masses, when you say.., "The owner just wants to get it running" means I am being cheap and do not want to do it correctly so my heirs can sell it. So in the mean time the vendors are stuck with inventory asking themselves whether or not to continue producing parts to an ungrateful group of people. The truth hurts those whom do not see the big picture.

My 2 cents worth but in about 5 or so many years....., vendors will disappear.

Henry K. Lee wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 18, 2025 5:56 am

No disrespect to anyone but this is a perfect example of why the hobby is dying. The vendors have the parts and have gone to great expenses to make them for the masses, when you say.., "The owner just wants to get it running" means I am being cheap and do not want to do it correctly so my heirs can sell it. So in the mean time the vendors are stuck with inventory asking themselves whether or not to continue producing parts to an ungrateful group of people. The truth hurts those whom do not see the big picture.

My 2 cents worth but in about 5 or so many years....., vendors will disappear.

Henry, I agree that this hobby is very lucky to have the vendors and availability of parts needed to keep our cars repaired. So far the coils have been sent for a rebuild to a vendor, new plug wires, battery cables, gaskets sets, wiring harness, valve lapping supplies, tires and tubes, and a few other items have been purchased from the vendor. That list will probably include new valves and rings before long and who knows what else before it is finished. I pulled the oil pan inspection plate in the oil pan and removed the pistons. The rings are not stuck on the pistons, the rod bearings have shims in them and measure .002 clearance and there is no sludge in sight of as far as I can reach around to feel. Also the money I get for these repairs will be spent with the vendors to buy needed items for my 14 Runabout and 36 Pickup which are complete restorations. It still comes down to how much is really needed to make this T driveable and how much the owner wants to spend on a three or four thousand dollar car. The last 1922 and 1924 Model T's that came to me looking like this were complete restorations with the customers spending two times what the cars can be sold for. Art

Most cars do not provide cash income to their owners.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 18, 2025 9:06 am

Most cars do not provide cash income to their owners.

Especially a Model T or even worse a Model A. I have both.

Henry K. Lee wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 18, 2025 5:56 am

No disrespect to anyone but this is a perfect example of why the hobby is dying. The vendors have the parts and have gone to great expenses to make them for the masses, when you say.., "The owner just wants to get it running" means I am being cheap and do not want to do it correctly so my heirs can sell it. So in the mean time the vendors are stuck with inventory asking themselves whether or not to continue producing parts to an ungrateful group of people. The truth hurts those whom do not see the big picture.

My 2 cents worth but in about 5 or so many years....., vendors will disappear.

Henry,

No disrespect... I can not take away the fact that you are something of a genius at what you do. Given that, I would expect that you could offer much more valuable advice as to how Art can free his stuck valve situation than to belittle him, or anyone else, for not spending enough money with vendors. Again, with all due respect...

It needs to be done correctly and not just getting the car running. It is not a belittlement but a fact of the times. Sorry you have hurt feelings too.

Henry K. Lee wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 18, 2025 10:07 am

It needs to be done correctly and not just getting the car running. It is not a belittlement but a fact of the times. Sorry you have hurt feelings too.

Thanks Henry. By the way, you are incapable of hurting my feelings.

Well, I'm kinda new here so I might as well get started by P___ing someone off. Art just asked for some advice about un-sticking some valves. He knows what the car owner wants and what he is willing to spend. He seems to be approaching the job with an open mind and some flexibility and common sense. To suggest that he is somehow being negligent by not blowing the engine apart and doing a complete rebuild is insulting and condescending.
Thousands of antique car engines have been needlessly "rebuilt" and often times are worse afterwards than they were before.
There was no mention that the owner is headed for the Montana 500 when the car is running so it appears to me that Arts approach is completely appropriate for this car at this time.
If the vendors livelihood and survival depends on us buying stuff we don't need, then our hobby is in worse condition that I thought.

Mike

Henry has helped me in the past with good informaton and parts that were not available from the vendors, light sockets, etc. Let’s be positive. These repairs enable me to spend on parts that I probably would have postponed, and for people to see how the cars looked when they were not brand new. Another, perhaps worse part of the supply problems is when the individuals we have come to rely on pass away. I’m talking about the guys that would make small items in small batches and supply those items to the vendors. I have been told several times “that part is no longer available”. Now I’m gonna go out and get greasy. I’m sure I will be asking more questions. Art

Maybe the General Discussion Forum needs to be divided into Mechanical & Maintenance Questions & Personal Opinion Forums. Sometimes our
passion for the Model T clouds our train of thought as much as our pocketbook can. I think ( just my opinion ) that a 90 year old gentleman is
less interested in a restoration project than being able to just enjoy a automobile that he loves or to recover as much as he can when selling it.
Recently I replaced a trashed fiber cam gear with a good used original to get a T running for a gentleman that has a rapidly degenerative eye
disease that the Doctors say he will not be able to drive in 6-12 months. I don't think a complete engine rebuild would have been in his best
interest & the future of the hobby never entered the equation. I hope he was able to enjoy it while he could & if all he can do now is park it
backwards in the driveway start it up & listen to it & the cars that drive by as he reminisces I'm good with that.
Craig.

Art you have always been a jewel and you know I have great respect for you, it appears you got my hidden message but others automatically jumped at an opportunity.

Rock On!

It's good to see that Alan wants to get his T running again. The last time I talked to him, probably a
couple of years ago, he didn't seem interested in doing anything with it. It's been 50 years since I last saw this car and it looks exactly the same!