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New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:52 pm
by jimuris
Can anyone help me in figuring out why the goose neck on the new radiator does not align up with the top of the low cylinder head? I have aligned the frame rails, it is correct. It sounds like the front crossmember is bent somehow. It is a 14 T and I have the 2 leather pads under the radiator support.
I put the top hose on and it is off center. Maybe someone else in T land has had this problem.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:27 pm
by Allan
Jim, it may help if you have photos. Otherwise, is the alignment out, front to back, or side to side?

Allan from down under.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:37 pm
by Jerry VanOoteghem
Are you using the correct water outlet? There's a high head and a low head style.

Yes, pictures would help...

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:27 pm
by DanTreace
Here is typical brass radiator on a low head with low style cylinder head water outlet to the radiator.
Brass Rad low head copy.jpg
And the factory design of the neck into the upper tank is offset. That mates with the cylinder head as the water outlet bolted there is offset in relation to the head and engine block.
Factory radiator drawing.jpg
Note rear panel of the upper tank on the right of the photo, the outlet is slightly offset left-to-right, in relation to the radiator support rod to the dash.

And this is Berg's black high radiator, similar position as factory, slight offset to mate to cylinder head.
BW rad correct outlet.jpg

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:30 pm
by Alan Long
Jim.
By chance have you had the front spring / front engine mount off lately?
If these aren’t dead central the engine will be sitting at an angle and maybe the cause of your issue.. Alan

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:50 pm
by Nv Bob
Many reas oi ns why i had shim the pan at the rear motor mount tilt it a little also shim radiator and make sure the front motor mount is centered good luck

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:08 pm
by John kuehn
For my 21 Touring I bought a nice recorded low cowl T radiator off of EBay.
When I tried to install it I found that the neck on the radiator was off a little and wouldn’t line up with the outlet on the head. I then made a spacer that would fit between the head and radiator that lined things up real well. I paid 275.00 for the recored radiator and with a little ingenuity it I fixed the misalignment. The radiator cools well and the spacer I made is hardly noticeable

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:24 pm
by Norman Kling
This assumes that the radiator is symetric.
If the frame is bent so that it is lower on one side at the rear motor mount, the engine will lean in that direction. usually toward the passenger side because that is the direction of the torque of the engine. First thing to do is straighten the frame. Small alignment issues can be taken up by shimming under one side of the radiator or the firewall.
Norm

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:01 pm
by jimuris
The front motor mount is centered properly. To be honest I have put 225 miles on the T since putting on the new radiator. This is a fresh restoration .
I remember now the radiator support rod I used was one that you take off the shelf. I had trouble putting it on then. I think it is a little short. Yesterday I went to take another look at the connection and the radiator is leaning toward the firewall, you can see it in the top hose. First I am going to buy a new support rod and see if that does the trick. Next the top hose is a little to short. Years back when you ordered a new set of hoses for your T they gave you enough epically the top hose. That was good for an early or late T. Now you order a set and you get just enough. Here is what I am going to do, I am going to order a new hose from restoration supply co. and trim to fit. The radiator should not be leaning front to back, it should be sitting straight with a good hose. Yes my frame rails are straight, that is the first thing I corrected. I will take some pics when I have corrected the problem. If anyone can think of anything else please let me know, thanks Jimmy

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:03 pm
by Allan
Jim, the radiator support rod is used to set the gap between the firewall and the radiator so the hood fits well. If the gap suits the hood, a different rod will offer no help. It will alter the alignment of the hose front to back, if that is what is needed, but will compromise the fit of the hood.

The suggested spacer between the outlet and cylinder head may well be the best solution.

Allan from down under.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:22 pm
by Adam
Is it mis-matching left and right, or forward and back?

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:44 am
by Allan
Adam, your question needs to be answered. I asked the same, in different words. Perhaps yours will be understood.

Allan from down under.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:44 pm
by jimuris
It is leaning towards the back. You can see on the hose there is a little bump there. Also the hood is a little tight, now that you mention it. Maybe it is a simple fix, I will keep you posted. I will pull the car out tomorrow and take some pics.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:49 pm
by Rob Patterson
jimuris wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:52 pm
the goose neck on the new radiator does not align up with the top of the low cylinder head?
I put the top hose on and it is off center. Maybe someone else in T land has had this problem.
Hi,
Yes the brand new Brassworks radiator I have on my '15 Speedster has the exact same problem.
Some may remember this is the radiator that travelled across the Pacific 3 times before it was delivered to me. Because of this, I decided I was going to just "wear" the problem and put up with it. The red rubber top hose has a distinct bend in it. I would say that the inlet into the radiator is about one quarter to one half of an inch off to the right hand side.
This isn't the only problem with this new, so called "reproduction", radiator, but, it holds water, it works and to the untrained, non Model T persons eye, looks fine.
Cheers,
Rob

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:11 pm
by jimuris
Here are some pics of my issue.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:31 pm
by Tim Williams
does the clamp tighten down enough for it not to leak?

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:38 pm
by Steve Jelf
As Dude Lester said, "It don't hurt the runnin' of it none." As long as the hood fits correctly and the hoses don't leak, I say close enough for gummint work. The change I would make is to ditch the modern clamps and use something close to the original Ford clamps. I think mine are pretty close, though I do cheat and used filister heads so the screwdriver can get a good grip.

IMG_0021 copy.JPG

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:53 pm
by Walter Higgins
All that extra stress on the inlet isn't cool. Is that just a brass tube soldered into brass sheet? The original inlets were a heavy casting with a generous flange and probably more apt to take stress (though at least there wasn't alignment stress present as seen here), but on a set-up like that I'd expect something to fail eventually.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:09 am
by rgould1910
From your photos, it appears there is no lock nut to distance the radiator rod the correct amount from the firewall. There should be 2 lock nuts. One at the firewall, the other at the radiator. I dont see the one at the radiator in your photos. Setting the correct distance is simply a matter of screwing the rod into the radiator the right amount and using the lock nut to keep it in place.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:28 am
by modeltbarn
It looks like the inlet that bolts to the block would be high, compared to the head, if it was not bolted to the head and the hose was connected to the radiator and everything else was in place, is that correct?

When did you buy the radiator and what vendor did you buy it from? I had a similar issue earlier this year, I'm trying to understand if your issue is similar .

Have you contacted Brass Works or the vendor you bought it from yet?

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:38 pm
by Steve Jelf
There should be 2 lock nuts.

I never knew that, so I've always used just the one at the firewall. So far that's kept my rods from turning. The parts book usually tells how many are needed, but it's silent on that. The bible shows one nut (Page 6).

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:31 pm
by Steve Jelf
748105.jpg
I came across this picture this evening and it reminded me of the question of whether the radiator rod should have two lock nuts. This is the famous 1917 Rip Van Winkle car. Maybe this also says something about the old question of whether engines were painted.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:56 pm
by Scott_Conger
I have never seen a locknut at the radiator. It would serve absolutely no purpose. What would 15,000,000 nuts cost in 1909-27 dollars? Or how much time saved if they were not installed and tightened 15,000,000 times?

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:12 pm
by A Whiteman
So are you confirming that Berg's jig has an error in it?
This seems to be a common problem, so maybe a kindly word to Bergs about modifying the jig would solve the issue going forward?

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:29 am
by Steve Jelf
Adrian, I believe the problem child here is from Brassworks, not Berg's.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:13 am
by Allan
Just because there is no locknut fitted to the front end of the rod on the Rip Van Winkle car, does not mean it is not a good idea. By their very nature, threaded fasteners need to have some clearance in their application. Any movement in the fitting will cause wear to the thread if it is not locked.
An added advantage of a front locknut is it sets the depth to which the rod is fitted if ever the radiator has to be removed.

Allan from down under.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:58 am
by A Whiteman
Adrian, I believe the problem child here is from Brassworks, not Berg's.
Thanks Steve, I stand corrected, and my apologies to Bergs,
Cheers
Adrian

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:34 am
by d stroud
I agree with Allan, a locknut is a very good idea. No reason not to add one. JMHO Dave

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:11 am
by DHort
Just installed this Berg's radiator this week. Fit is good. Locknut is in place.
IMG_20190725_095603947.jpg
IMG_20190725_095603947.jpg (76.03 KiB) Viewed 1786 times
Car and motor is 1920. Shroud was plated brass by a previous owner.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:51 pm
by J1MGOLDEN
What most people don't notice is that water inlet on the brass radiator top is 3/8th inch off center and sometimes the vertical piece is bent the wrong way at the bottom and that places the water inlet 3/4th inch off center in the opposite direction.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:43 pm
by Scott_Conger
Allan

I agree with all your points on mechanical fasteners, assuming zero motion and total rigidity is desired.

And yet, I have never found a radiator with a stripped thread, nor a stripped thread on the support rod. The next time you're motoring down a really rough road and the radiator is shaking and shimmying ferociously on it's springs, and the T frame is flexing to beat the band, think of the beating the solder connection is taking where the threaded post mates to the tank and your lock nut is socked down solid, directing all force/flex into the solder joint on the tank. If you think a solid fastener at one point of a 3 point spring supported suspension is a great idea, I would disagree. It's one of those things that seems obvious on it's face, and yet, from a design standpoint, it is not really a good idea at all.

FWIW

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:44 am
by Allan
Scott, my experience differs. I have found stripped rods/castings on two radiators over the years.

The casting on the tank is solidly riveted in place. Solder is used to strengthen and seal the joint. Then an added washer is soldered to the outside of the tank to seal around the casting and further strengthen the fixing point. What has developed is a strong mounting point for the rod.

The issues with frame wracking and vibration are addressed by the two point mounting of the radiator on spring loaded studs. The radiator is not 'fixed' to the frame. It is free to move on its mountings as the frame flexes. The later style of mounting has the radiator supported on springs on top of the frame, as well as the springs within the frame allowing the studs to absorb stresses. With the length of the radiator support rod, and its flexibility, I doubt that any frame movement will allow the radiator mountings to transfer damaging loads to the rod mounting.

If any twisting load on the rod was considered enough to compromise the mounting at the radiator, I would be inclined to leave the firewall end of the rod just loose enough to allow the twist.

I could be wrong.

Allan from down under.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:53 pm
by Piewagon
If you didn't start your radiator installation by measuring the center to center distance between the 2 frame rail holes on top of the frame that the radiator mounting studs pass through then do it when you have the radiator OFF. It is a rare frame that has the correct 21-1/2" wide distance on the measurement. My bet is that it is wider than the correct dimension by at least 1/8" or more. You may not think this makes any difference but it does. The cause of a wrong width dimension at those holes is that the front cross member has sagged down at the sides making the width wider in the process. Both sides do NOT drop down the same amount but if you use the "usual" method of wrapping a chain and some wood blocks around the front of the frame and then you set a bottle jack on the front cross member and put the chain loop over the top of the bottle jack and start jacking up on the chain. The chain will tighten and do 2 things. It will push the sagging front cross member back into correct position and pull in the sides of the frame at the same time. Stop when the frame rails measure 21-1/2" wide at the radiator mounting stud centers. In this process you might find that the side to side distance will be corrected because the front crossmember will usually straighten back on the side that is the most wrong. I was able to put a hammer handle up into the fitting on the back top of my last T radiator and push it down to gently form the neck down to line up better. Mine was worse than your picture when I started out but don't do any hammering just let the sheet metal bend a bit and the angle on the radiator upper tank neck will move a small amount and you really don't need very much out at the end of the piece that is too high. Do that bend last - don't ignore the small sag of the frame at the radiator mounting studs since hood fit and other issues depend on things being balanced side to side. You will have to remove the front spring to allow the chain to be looped around the front of the frame then insert blocks of wood at the sides.

Good luck.

Re: New Brassworks Radiator

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:00 am
by Adam
A very good possibility is that someone in the past changed the front crossmember in that car and mistakenly used a TT crossmember. The original radiator was then found to have exactly the same issue, and eventually the radiator inlet was modified to fit correctly.

I've seen mismatches at the top hose due to incorrect cross member several times, but so far only on the later “black radiators”. The usual mismatch on the later radiators would be about an inch. It makes sense that the same mismatch on the earlier radiator would be a bit less because of its shallower angle.