MTFCA Forum

So there I was last Friday beginning the installation of my new disc brake kit. I had made good use of the 10 days since I sent in my brake pedal for modification by gathering my tools and preparing the work space, so when the kit arrived on Thursday evening along with my modified brake pedal I was ready to jump right in on Friday.

When I had removed the brake pedal I tied a wire hanger around the ears of the band to hold it in place so I figured my first step should be to re-install the pedal and adjust the band.

Having read the forum before, and being fully aware of all the warnings about dropping nuts and washers down into the transmission, I nonetheless proceeded to try and reinstall the pedal without stuffing rags around the inside, without tying a string or floss around the nut and washer, and without the clamp to hold the band.

After all, I removed the pedal, spring, nut and washer without any problems, so what could go wrong? I'm perfectly competent, I know what I'm doing, and I want to get this thing done NOW.

So I did the reverse of what I did to remove the pedal. I wedged a large flathead screwdriver against the ear of the band, supported by the edge of the access cover and used my other hand to slide on the washer. No problem.

But wait! I put the washer on backwards! So I carefully removed it, turned it around and properly installed it. Again, no problem.

As I'm sure you have guessed by now, this is when it happened; as I reached for the nut the screwdriver slipped. The band sprang open, shoving the washer off the shaft and down into the murky depths.

Having been aware that I should not have been doing it this way, having read the unanimous warnings on this very forum about the potential for this disaster, and STILL having done it anyway, I was filled with self-loathing and recriminations.

But how to get it out? Well, check the MTFCA forum of course. But alas! To add insult to my self-inflicted injury, the MTFCA site was down! Despondence began to set in as I realized that, for the time being, I would face the consequences of my hubris alone.

Things began looking up a bit when I discovered that Google cached snapshots of the forum that were accessible even though the site was down. The gist of what I learned is that I needed a flexible shaft magnet to fish around for the washer. If that didn't work, try draining the oil so that maybe the washer would flow down to the drain where I might attach it to a stiff wire and feed it back up to the top. If that failed I might try removing the hogshead for better access. If that failed, try stuffing a rag in there and slowly turn the crank in the hopes that the flywheel and rag would scoop up the washer. And if that failed, I would have to pull the engine.

Having learned my fate, I went and bought the only two such telescoping magnets in stock at my nearest big box store, one large, one small. I bent the shafts to get around the drums and spent the next two hours fishing around to no avail. I stopped trying when one of the shafts split and I was afraid of it breaking off down in the transmission.

Next, I drained the oil to try and drive the washer down to drain hole. This was particularly annoying because I had just changed the oil last weekend and had only driven about 15 miles. I crammed my fingers in that hole to feel around but found nothing. I used a strong magnet all around the bottom of the pan to try and drag the washer to the drain hole. No dice. I shoved a stiff wire in the hole to feel around, trying to locate the washer. Nothing.

Before removing the hogshead I searched everywhere for a flexible shaft magnet and found one in stock at a big box store 30 miles away. When I got home I fed it into the transmission and began fishing. The flexible shaft was much easier to work with and got around in there much better than the telescoping shaft.

And I began to get aggressive. I was annoyed, angry, and despondent and I wanted that washer out NOW. You know what happened next.

The flexible shaft magnet got hung up towards the front of the transmission; it would move down a little bit, but would not come back up. I stopped, stepped away from the car and put my head down.

My hopes of solving this problem myself were dashed. I was going to have to pull the engine and I was going to have to wait until I could get somebody that knows what they're doing to help me.

Despair set in. Forget about the new brakes, this car was probably not going to be running again this year, because when you start mucking around pulling an engine like this you always find other problems that need to be fixed and then you're off to the races.

I had failed. Because there were no additional steps I could take by myself, I began fooling around with the stuck magnet. Oddly, a sense of calm despondence came over me; I was resigned to my fate and had nothing more to lose. I began gently pushing and twisting the magnet shaft.

Did it just move a little more? My mind must be playing tricks on me. More gentle pushing and twisting. Did it just come out a little bit? I think so, but it's still stuck. Hmm, more gentle pushing, pulling and twisting.

Whoa! The magnet shaft moved freely! Was there hope for me after all? Ever so gently I withdrew the magnet shaft, praying that it would not get stuck again, that I wouldn't make another terrible mistake of judgment.

And as the end of the shaft cleared the transmission bands and came up out of the access cover, there, attached to the magnet, was the washer.

I stepped away from the car, placed the magnet with the washer still attached to the end on the running board, and sat down on my shop stool not with a sense of accomplishment or victory, but of quiet gratitude.

After a few minutes composing myself I got up, stuffed about 15 rags around the transmission bands, clamped the band with a drain wrench that was sitting with my plumbing tools not 20 feet away the entire time, and successfully completed the brake pedal installation.

I wrote this lengthy piece not for the old hands who already know better, or for the amusement these kinds of stories engender. I chronicled it here for the next newbie like myself who, in the future might read it along with all the other warnings and not make this terrible mistake.

Happy Motoring!

Sweet! I have an older flexable shaft magnet, the head is longer. Yes I too have had to use it With mine I have found that sometimes it gets hung up on the starter ring gear teeth.
Re rags, don't always count on them! I have had at least one time that the washer or nut found the only spot that was not even close to where I was working and found it's way into the murky depths.
If you drained the oil into a clean pan, reuse it.

Scott, good things come to those who wait! Glad you will be motoring down the road soon. No substitute for 1st hand knowledge. I grit my teeth everytime Im tinkering under that trans cover. Even with all precautions.

Nice story. Are you an author?

I could see a collection of these little snapshots along with some illustrations filling a book.
I have a few of my own.

Jeff

Scott

Such a great wording of your trials! Well done.

Have too walked away from times when my mistakes made the T work un-fun.

Have always liked to learn from others too, to keep from doing the same.

Use only floss now, but with two strands on each nut and washer over the abyss under the trans. cover.

And keep that tool at the top of the pegboard, like a fire extinguisher, just in case

Scott - reading your post I felt your pain and shared your relief when the magnet came out with the washer on the end. I'm glad it worked out OK for you.

Since your post was in part intended as a learning experience for newbies I would add that with rags stuffed around the transmission you don't want anyone turning the crank. Many years ago while changing bands I was called in to lunch by my wife so I left the garage and went inside. A friend stopped over and after lunch we returned to the garage. My friend asked if it was hard to crank and without a second thought I walked to the front of the car and gave the crank a couple of nice turns and instantly realized that In doing so I had managed to drag those rags into the transmission. I spent the next 3 hours trying to get those damn oil soaked rags back out and another 6 months worrying about rag fragments clogging the oil line. Lesson learned (the hard way)!

Scott:

Appreciated your write-up.... packed with adventure, pathos, excitement, mystery, drama and comedy. But seriously, I had a similar band experience with our '26, except on the reverse band installation. I too installed band washer , locking nub reversed. Had double strand floss there but the shaft/nut threads weakened floss on nut removal..... yes.... dropped nut. Had drained oil prior, heard nut drop, making metallic noise twice, now thought nut attached to a flywheel magnet. Shortened story, removed starter used flex cable with magnet end, and thanks to our son who successfully fished the nut out from the starter motor access. With prior nut droppings, lucky enough to remove bendix cover, slowly rotate with hand crank to pick up nut on magnet with angled long nose plier. Happy for you to be back on the road again .

Bob J.

Still in the learning mode as I’ve not yet faced changing bands. But I’m definitely a believer.

So how do you tie the nut with dental floss? It seems to me, if you thread the floss through the center of the nut, that the floss will be cut as the nut is threaded onto the shaft. Is the thread fit so loose that the floss doesn’t get cut?

Dick: I double up on the floss, thread thru the nut and washer, then install. The idea is just to keep the two parts together, position on shaft then turn nut down keeping things together before final adjustment. Yes, the floss will be compromised , but it does it's job on installation procedure.... excess easily cut then removed.

Now don’t forget to remove ALL of the rags

I'm with Greg, if you drained the oil into a clean pan, reuse it.

Just like a surgeon, and his tools and sponges, count the rags as you put them in, and make a note of the number! I, at least, can't trust my memory as much anymore-was that five or seven rags I stuffed in there!? Then count them as you remove them, to be sure you found them all!

Been there, done that..... If you started the engine, even for one second. You might as well plan on removing the hogs head and lower inspection pan. No way to get all the little pieces out without removing the covers. ..

I had a "moment" and caught a nut with my magnet. It was on a rag near the flywheel.
I later dropped a cover screw on the ground and grabbed my magnet to get it...no sticky !!
Here the end of the magnet had came out and stuck to the flywheel !! Had I not dropped the cover screw, bad things may have been on the horizon. Grabbed it with needle nose pliers, all good.

After seeing pics of the destruction that leaving even one rag behind can do, i use an old twin sheet just for this occasion. Plenty of material to stuff every nook and cranny of the trans, with some to spare. When done, pull it all out, no counting needed.

Mac tools sells a flexible shaft magnet that's fantastic for these situations it's about 20" long made from a 1/8" soft aluminium shaft with a knurled handle the magnet is only 5/16" around & 1/2" long. It's strong enough to pick up a 9/16" wrench. I keep one at work & at home. There pricey at about $20 but work great. I use one all the time for things other than fishing washers out of Model Transmissions. Really I do.

What a nicely written story. I could feel the agony of defeat and the thrill of victory that you were feeling. And, it reminds me of similar feelings when dealing with my T.

I've never had a car so delight and frustrate me at the same time.

Model T's make you earn your ownership of them. They're very much like the horses that they replaced and will bite and kick if you're complacent but will reward you with enumerable pleasures if cared for and respected.

We managed to drop the "Shift nob" for the Ruckstel shifter into the transmission. yes, we amateurs that we are, had the cover off. We have drained the oil, made wire grabbers and pushers out of coat hangers, and felt around with our fingers from the top and up the drain hole. We cannot prove to ourselves that it is even in there and my partner swears he was it fall in. Our T sits on a concrete slab with nothing near it, so we would have seen it if it fell somewhere else. I have been under the car and looked and felt everywhere. Please, does someone know something else we can try before we have to pull the transmission. Could the knob have made it's way into the pan ?

Get a half dozen of your biggest buddies, a case of really good beer, drink beer then flip the T over & shake the SH_ _ out of it !

Had a buddy actually do that with an excavator - band nut dropped back out !

Maybe try a camera for tight spaces. Thats a pretty big object not to see with a scope camera. I have dropped things and spent hrs looking for it to find it later on the other side of the shop.

Jed wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:05 pm

We managed to drop the "Shift nob" for the Ruckstel shifter into the transmission. yes, we amateurs that we are, had the cover off. We have drained the oil, made wire grabbers and pushers out of coat hangers, and felt around with our fingers from the top and up the drain hole. We cannot prove to ourselves that it is even in there and my partner swears he was it fall in. Our T sits on a concrete slab with nothing near it, so we would have seen it if it fell somewhere else. I have been under the car and looked and felt everywhere. Please, does someone know something else we can try before we have to pull the transmission. Could the knob have made it's way into the pan ?

Only one guy claims that he saw it fall in there, hmmm? Did he maybe then sit on a bucket drinking beer while you were rooting around in there looking for it?

Seriously though, I don't see how there's room for a shift knob to fall all the way down in there. Seems like it would at least get hung up on the clutch forks or the side of the drum.

Here's a few annoying questions: Did you check the lip between the base of the Ruckstell shifter and the transmission? How about under the car resting on the inside of one of the tires? (The knob is black and it might blend right in there if you're not looking for it.)

Like Dallas says, maybe try a borescope.

Thank you all for the kind words.

I make a lot of mistakes but you can bet the farm that I won't be making THAT one again.

There are many, many fresh mistakes I'll be making in the coming years.

Quick update on the install of the disc brake kit install that started this thing:

I got the assembly installed on the driver's side without incident.

Passenger side hit a snag though. The hub is a slightly smaller diameter than the drivers side and the lug holes are a smaller diameter than they should be so I can't press it onto the new drum/disc. And there's a tag on it that says "Made in Hong Kong."

And everybody seems to have wire wheel rear hubs on back order. So there's that.

I've been thinking about taking this hub over to a pretty good machine shop over here and having the lug holes widened to the correct size.