MTFCA Forum

So there’s a first time for everything....first time I’ve had to call a tow truck. Ever.

Transmission nastiness. MAjor bummer.

Oh shoot!

wayne sheldon wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:03 pm

Oh shoot!

Right? I’ll take off the hogs head tomorrow with Brad and see what went wrong. Nothing good, I’m sure.

Jeff

Jeff, this is not your first trip down this road. What’s up with that? What are the symptoms and conditions extant at the time of the failure?

Erik Barrett wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:49 am

Jeff, this is not your first trip down this road. What’s up with that? What are the symptoms and conditions extant at the time of the failure?

Yes, I know. And the car was running so well after all the work we did. I literally drive it almost every day.

But, Im fastidious about keeping track of noises on this car so I can relay exactly all the stages it went through before failure. About a month ago I started getting a noise that sounded like a faint paint rattle can when coming to a stop. The noise generally stopped when the car stopped but not always. Best I could tell is It was coming from the back left (driver) side of the hoggshead.

Heeding the advice that not all noises come from the motor and could just be my noisy rear end (Ring &pinion) transmitting thru the driveshaft, I didn’t think much about it until 2days ago when it got more pronounced. Now it’s there all the time but only when the car is at rest and in “neutral”. Yesterday morning the noise got louder, again only when the car is stopped. I had Brad Lusk listen to it and acknowledged that indeed there was a noise, but he says “that sounds no worse than my rattle trap”.... so again, I’m not worried. I did notice that I could stop the noise completely by depressing the reverse pedal Slightly. Not to the point it engages reverse, but about an inch of travel. I have noticed that using reverse has always been quite a noisy event. But then i listened closely to Brad’s car in reverse, and it’s no more noisy than his is.

So most of the day yesterday I was coming to a stop and slightly depressing the reverse pedal just to get rid of the rattle when the car is stopped. Again, well before the reverse band engages. I should also mention that everything sounds completely normal at cruising speeds and always shifted smoothly from low to high gear.

For reference, I have the brake band set to engage the Rockies well before the brake band engages the brake drum and I have 2-3 inches of brake travel before any engagement of the Rockies. Low band engages fully about 1” from the floorboards, and I’ve adjusted this twice with about 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn on the adjustment bolt in the first month after the rebuild. It’s stayed in adjustment since. I drive this car by getting full low band engaged in less than 8’ from a stop and at low revs. I’ve cleaned the ford faithful screen a few times over the past few months, the last time was last week, and only the first time after the rebuild was there any kind of material in it. I assume that was from breaking in the new Kevlar bands and it wasn’t all that much. All other times including last week there was a little bit of the typical sludge to be cleaned.

Then in the late afternoon yesterday, we were coming home and I was coming to a stop from hi gear and pressed the Low-hi pedal in to coast to a stop and it didn’t disengage hi gear. Before the panic attack set in I continued pressing the pedal to low and finally the car started to slow. At this point I then hear a sudden and severe rattle in the hogs head and I shut down the car and called the flatbed tow truck. Luckily (?) I was across the street from a high-end winery and spent the next 3 hours “tasting” wine so I didn’t have to wallow in frustration and depression.

So that’s the sequence of events. I plan on taking the hogs head off tomorrow morning when it’s cool here in Napa just to have a look see. It’s already 90 outside, and I’m still hung over from my solo “tasting” party, so not today.

Jeff

Ouch Jeff!

Hank

One of the "joys" of model Ts, is that they ARE noisy. They knock, they clatter, they whine, and they rattle like nothing else. And, usually, that is normal. We shrug shoulders, and drive on, hoping it will be okay. And, usually, it is. But, sometimes, it isn't. And we wind up getting a lift home. Or sometimes, an issue gets worse until we tear it down and we wind up wondering "how the devil did this thing go as long as it did"? Then again, sometimes, there are no bad noises, no real warnings. I had that happen with one T. A tired old worn out engine with the most quiet transmission I or almost anyone else had ever heard. I fully intended to replace the motor with one I had re-freshened (a really nice motor) and use the transmission out of the tired engine. I pulled the motor, removed the pan and lifted it end-wise to remove the flywheel and transmission. Didn't get very far, and not one, but two triple-gears and their pins (the holes in the drum webs had lined up perfectly!) fell OUT and hit the concrete. The pins had to fall through large end through the worn oversize holes in the flywheel in order to fall out! There was very little in that transmission that ! was able to use.

Sorry to hear you are back here again, and way too soon! Part of the adventure.

Speculation. My guess is that by lightly pressing the reverse pedal, you dampened the ability of the drums and gears to knock forward and back, thereby quieting the rattle. Probably going to find a seized tripple-gear.

Other than a mess, there is no telling specifically what you're going to find, but ring/pinion noises rarely are heard when the car is stopped. In the future, if you get advice from someone that rattling noises growing louder, and eminating from the transmission even while stopped, is normal, seek out better advice.

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:45 pm

In the future, if you get advice from someone that rattling noises growing louder, and eminating from the transmission even while stopped, is normal, seek out better advice.

Nobody said the word “normal”.... acknowledgement of a noise is different from saying it’s normal. But, I’d been driving the car for several months after the rebuild and it was done with the utmost care by those in the know using quality parts, so who’s to say what a normal rattle does or doesn’t sound like after that?

Jeff

Jeff

to perhaps clarify: a rattle coming from the transmission, which is occuring when the car is at rest and not moving, that continues to grows louder (a key point), is not normal. An expensive and frustrating lesson, for sure...I feel for you.

I am going to be putting a completely new set of drums and triple gears up for sale. It is expensive but will last you the rest of your life to do it once with new parts than look all over to find crack free originals and still those are 100 years old. Just a thought.

David Mazza wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:35 pm

I am going to be putting a completely new set of drums and triple gears up for sale. It is expensive but will last you the rest of your life to do it once with new parts than look all over to find crack free originals and still those are 100 years old. Just a thought.

Appreciated but this trans was pristine when we built it.”I’ve never seen a T transmission look any better. Ever.” Those words from those in the know. Something went amiss. More when I tear it down.

Jeff.

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:38 pm

Jeff

to perhaps clarify: a rattle coming from the transmission, which is occuring when the car is at rest and not moving, that continues to grows louder (a key point), is not normal. An expensive and frustrating lesson, for sure...I feel for you.

that suddenly grows louder is not normal.

Modified, but Agreed.

On the way home from purchasing a 1958 Buick for my wife, she dropped away in traffic
and I looped back to find her sitting in the median with an ocean of oil trailing away behind
the car. A quick scan revealed thrown rods and holes in the block. I called for a tow.

She and the kid got in my 61 New Yorker and followed the tow truck home. As we drove, I
asked her if she heard any unusual noises before the "big bang". She said "Yeah, there was
some knocking that just kept getting louder and louder". I asked what she did then. She said
the noise just pissed her off because she could not hear the radio, so she just kept turning it
up !

Jeff

not to beat this to death, but that was exactly my original point

if you get advice from someone that rattling noises growing louder, and eminating from the transmission even while stopped, is normal... seek out better advice

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:22 am

Jeff

not to beat this to death, but that was exactly my original point

if you get advice from someone that rattling noises growing louder, and eminating from the transmission even while stopped, is normal... seek out better advice

Its a good thing I never got advice from anyone like that...,

Pull the trans inspection plate FIRST---The three triple gears should be a bit loose/movable---if NOT---That's time to pull the hogshead. It sure sounds like a triple gear issue---Good luck!! paul

.... or, just turn the radio up louder and keep driving !

Wasnt that avdvice taken from a guy that always has his hood up

My SIL had the same problem, 2 weeks prior to the MTFCI tour in PEI this year. He heard a new noise, and asked my opinion. Turned out that one tripple gear bushing was well worn out. Through a major effort, the engine was pulled, trans taken apart, and a new bushing was machined and installed. When reassembling, the brake drum broke one of the lugs. We had to replace that also.
The moral to the story is, if you suspect there is a problem, fix it while it is only a small problem.

OK... Hogshead off this am, thanks for this forums excellent advice on how to remove it!

No good news. ALL of the triple gear bearings are toast. and burnt toast at that. You can see the result here:
https://youtu.be/fS9wUhwuSV0

OBVIOUSLY MUCH more digging is in order to get to the root cause, however, here are some absolute, indisputable facts:

- this trans was in pristine condition, front to back, when we put it together.
- the complete trans+flywheel originally came from a known source, but none of the actual parts used in the rebuilt trans have a known source.
- ALL the triple gears failed. not just one.
- I probably put a few thousand miles on it since the rebuild.
- it failed over about a month. I drive this car almost every day.
- the rattle-can noise that started it all a month ago was the loose triple gear bearings talking to me.

The leading, plausible theory is that the triple gear bearings were replaced long ago and while they appeared to be sound and measured perfect, the bearing material and/or entire replacement bearing used is suspect, hence the premature failure. AGAIN, we won't know for certain until we tear it all down. So, please hold ALL opinions and judgments until then. I promise to update this thread as we progress so we can all learn from this failure. As everyone knows, it should not have failed in this way. But it did.

to be continued....

Jeff

Hang in there buddy.
I got this on my toolbox, maybe it'll help.

Per your request, and as prudent, I won't speculate, but your video pretty much tells the story. And the story is going to be different than what you're thinking.

Once you get the kinks worked out, you're certainly going to know almost every inch of this car.

Hang in there

Son Of A Bi--ch !!!!!!!!!!

Dave Hanlon: Your sign, Race It-Break It-Fix It-Repeat, made me laugh. Back in the years 1985-1991 I raced micro midget's mostly at the same local track. One of my friends also raced, and in a new car after many weeks of breaking parts and up grading parts and making big $$ changes to his car he had a car that could run up front with the big boys. In one of his first few main event's in the improved car he was running about 3rd with a few laps to go. There was a big crash that collected up his car, he was OK, but in looking at the bent and mangled car on the trailer after the race, except for the motor, there was no part that didn't need fixing or replacing to get that top car back. Thank goodness that Model T's are not generally that bad when they break, excepting broken crankshafts, and that Model T's are insurable so if wrecked or caught in a flood, ect., they can be replaced.

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:34 pm

Son Of A Bi--ch !!!!!!!!!!

Right? What else can go wrong after this??

Jeff

Ask any Norwegian bachelor farmer, and the answer is:

"It could always be worse"

Pass the popcorn please!

I have a suspicion, but I'll wait and see.

I think it was the Marvel Mystery Oil in the water pump !

Ouch, It's a bummer after all that work it should have a lasted many many thousands of miles. Do you have any idea of what clearance was set up for the triple gear pins. I have read several different opinions of what the correct/workable clearance is. I see Dan M posted a comment and he would surely have some good advice about that.
Good Luck and sure sorry for all the extra ReWork.

I am surprised that no one said the cause is l-i-o spelled backwards!

Matt

Well shoot usualy stop kick out the X wife
Most of noises went away like my T had healing
Sorry here best be safe then sorry
Keep us posted

Hello there,

I am going first time napa city. can you tell me what is revolving in napa city and for what is napa valley famous place?

Keep us posted! There have been a lot of triple gear bushing problems in the past. Bob Bergstadt had the last batch made to Ford Z bronze specifications.

What does the Grand Poobah have to say about all of this?

Kind of weird to resurrect this thread with a geography question, but Napa is currently the premier wine country in the US (some say the world). Lots of wineries and resorts in the area, there are numerous visitor’s websites if you google the area.

As far as Jeff’s problem, there was one or more other detailed threads on what happened and how it was fixed.

Keep crankin’
Eric

I'm waiting for Jeff to report back!

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https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... 214#p61214
https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... 036#p61036