Why great cars don't sell?

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brassford
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Why great cars don't sell?

Post by brassford » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:26 pm

Hi all, It seems to me a shame that there are so many nice cars with for sale but no buyers! The 14 touring I have for sale here and on HCCA could not be much more original and as mentioned here several "you couldn't paint it for that" Most younger guys are either completely anti internal combustion (ridiculous) or they want 2200 HP not 22. They don't seem to understand where their 700 HP 4 cyl foreign car they love, came from nor do they care. I have been in the car hobby since I was 6 years old and I'm 62 now. I love all cars that demonstrate innovation or generate emotion (except the Prius.) I have worked on or restored everything from an 1899 Peugeot to 1970 McLaren 200 mph beast. I hope we can generate enough interest in the history and significance of the early cars to keep people interested in driving them before our ignorant government outlaws them.

Stepping down from my soapbox,
Rick

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Dan B
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Dan B » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:10 pm

Link?
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by avahon » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:29 pm

We're out here and interested but maybe not in the position to completely enjoy the hobby just yet. I'm 36 and a few years ago I had a 1914 cut-off touring dropped in my lap by my mother-in-law. I never thought I could have a passion for cars let alone brass era, but I sure have found it. But with 5 kids age 8 and under, finances will only allow modest tinkering at this point. I hope to have it completely restored at some point and would also love to add another brass car at some point, but that will likely be far down the road. Until that time, I find great joy in reading the magazines from MTFCA, MTFCI, and HCCA, and following the discussions on this forum.
Doug
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Dan B
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Dan B » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:02 am

Boy, those of us in the “younger crowd” sure do get it from all angles. We’re either too cheap to buy established hobby businesses or too foolish to understand the true value of a car. All the while, there’s a post seemingly every week about how to get young people involved in the hobby. Believe me, it’s not for lack of interest.
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Gonenorth » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:18 am

I'm not sure the demand is there any more. From the pages of Econ 101: demand and availability determines price. At every price there is a buyer; fewer at higher prices, more at lesser prices. Several years ago when I was looking for my first Model T I went over to a place that advertised classic cars for sale. Stuck way in the back was a 24-25 Model T Touring with a 23 engine. Almost every other car was a 60's/70's muscle car and a couple of classic Jeeps. Right by the entrance was a beautifully restored Model A roadster. While I was in the back looking over the Model T and surveying the crowds, it was pretty obvious most of the interest was in the muscle cars. The Model A had no lookers, neither did the Model T. Every generation wants the cars of its youth. Unfortunately, the march of time has claimed the Model T generation. While younger generations may enjoy looking at and occasionally riding in a Model T, they won't lay out a lot of cash for one. They have other priorities.


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by bud delong » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:54 am

Could it be the price? Every now and then when some ask what is it worth a few will reply [what ever you can get],but that might not be true.Bud.


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by John kuehn » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:25 am

Model T’s will always have a certain following in the old car hobby but I’m like the poster Gonenorth. The majority of folks who have the time, money and nohow for old cars are the people who grew up driving 50-70’s cars. And those guys have either retired of going to pretty quick.
In 10-20 years when a lot of us are gone 80’s and 90’s cars will be the coming attraction.
I have 3 Model T’s and hopefully my kids will still have and drive them. Time will tell.


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Scott S. » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:36 am

Dan B wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:02 am
Boy, those of us in the “younger crowd” sure do get it from all angles. We’re either too cheap to buy established hobby businesses or too foolish to understand the true value of a car. All the while, there’s a post seemingly every week about how to get young people involved in the hobby. Believe me, it’s not for lack of interest.
I agree with Dan and Doug here, as a young Model T hobby enthusiast myself I personally know several other under 40 year olds who own and tour Model T's that they purchased and maintain.I have in fact viewed Rick's classified ad for his beautiful 1914 touring car several times and would love to own a brass era car someday. However, with a young family I hardly spend $22,000 on our family car let alone a hobby vehicle. The way I see it I can enjoy a 1926 touring car that is half the price just as much and I know others my age will say the same.
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Jeff Perkins
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Jeff Perkins » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:45 am

John kuehn wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:25 am
In 10-20 years when a lot of us are gone 80’s and 90’s cars will be the coming attraction. Time will tell.
I think this scenario is happening now.....I often drive my 1991 Miata to evening cruise ins and the younger crowd is all over it. The last event I drove it to there were three others like it!
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Sam_Mendenhall » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:48 am

Start them young they never forget. I let all young kids play and get acquainted with my cars, most owners make the kids get back and don"t touch. Why would a child want to get involved if they are told stay away?
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by art32mor » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:10 pm

When i was younger i'm 50 now only way i could afford an old car was buy non runner or parts now over the years i put 30 + back on the road but still cant afford 15 to 30k + car or atleast it have tobe something real wanted

Soon i be putting my 14 T and 28 A pheaton on the market realisticaly priced under 15k each find new families to enjoy them as i collected parts biuld T i always liked
Price location may have alot to do with amount of lookers one has and yes i realize what it costs to restore a car today
It's the cars value between looker and seller that sets true value not a book or what you actualy have invested in it.


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brassford
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by brassford » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:32 pm

Thank you all for your response! All are valid points. The great thing about T's is you can get into the hobby quite inexpensively and there are certainly families that will pass down the hobby. Clearly the market sets the price of the cars, that's my point. The market seems to continue to devalue the higher end T's and the auctions are selling 67 Camaros for 150K. The market is changing. Let's not forget that long before 1913 they were racing cars and that is how we got to where we are today. Continue to support MTFCA and all car clubs

Enjoy your day!


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Hit The Nail On The Head

Post by FreighTer Jim » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:56 pm

avahon wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:29 pm
We're out here and interested but maybe not in the position to completely enjoy the hobby just yet. I'm 36 and a few years ago I had a 1914 cut-off touring dropped in my lap by my mother-in-law. I never thought I could have a passion for cars let alone brass era, but I sure have found it. But with 5 kids age 8 and under, finances will only allow modest tinkering at this point. I hope to have it completely restored at some point and would also love to add another brass car at some point, but that will likely be far down the road. Until that time, I find great joy in reading the magazines from MTFCA, MTFCI, and HCCA, and following the discussions on this forum.
Doug
Doug,

Thanks for posting.

You hit the nail on the head squarely.

Great picture of your kids .... :mrgreen:


As a young Dad raising a family - money is tight - any car that doesn't serve as daily transportation is a Luxury.

I wouldn't" restore " you car - just keep it running and in the Family .... ;)


My last trip west - I transported this family owned 1928 Model A Pick Up from Grandma Tommie in Trinity,
Texas to Grandson Mike in Chandler, Arizona - was was pretty d@mn excited - he had waited (30) years
to be the new Caretaker .... :!:



FJ

file-201.jpeg

file-199.jpeg


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Mark Osterman » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:12 pm

Here are three who couldn't wait to get into my runabout. But I think it’s really about getting teenagers and college age kids interested in working with mechanical things, not to replaced digital technology but as a new way of seeing all technology.

Back in the early 1990s my wife and I conducted the very first revival workshops in teaching how to make tintypes and ambrotypes (1850s photo technology. Now there are thousands of people of all ages making photographs this way in a very active international revival. Interestingly you’ll find that one thing this new revival likes is when the process is technically a little rough ... a back lash from the perfect digital photograph. They like that the hand of the maker is seen in the edges of the plates. Google modern tintype or ambrotype.

The area that is often seen as distasteful by some in antique car circles is the current interest in steam punk. Embracing these people might actually jump start a whole new appreciation for cars like ours .. just from different direction. After all look what’s happened with audio tape and vinyl records.


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Mark Osterman » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:13 pm

Whoops ... forgot the picture.
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Sarikatime » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:18 pm

Congratulations Mike and wife. Drive it often and flaunt it with pride. In case you need parts,Sammy at Arizona model A down the street from you has all the spare parts, new or used, to keep it on the road.
Frank


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Derek Kiefer » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:40 pm

There are a lot of better cars, more practical cars, faster cars, safer cars, more comfortable cars, easier cars to maintain, and cars that you can just do more things with than a Model T. It's completely irrational and irresponsible to own and drive one. If that rare person who is crazy enough to want one is married, they also may need to convince their better half to go along with this idea in order to release a significant amount of money up front before they can even start to see the fun side of it. That person also needs to have a space to put it, tools to work on it, and free time to enjoy it.

We're an odd bunch. It's amazing that there's even this many of us in the world.

The prospect of attracting new people to the hobby is incredibly daunting. They need to be bred into it so they don't know any better. :lol:

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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Roger Byrne » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:03 pm

Well Derek, so we have Dean to blame for your "problem"? :lol:
Blue Smoke aside, you are right . . . it takes a rare combination today for guys in your age bracket and other young families to get into the Model T affliction. I'm just damn glad there are guys of your caliber, that get involved!
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by BuddyTheRoadster » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:27 am

As an under-40 model T owner, I want to chime in.

First off, the generation that remembered model Ts as new or used cars has passed away. I bought my T in 1995, and at that time, elderly people remembered Ts in junkyards or the turnouts where a model T had to make a hard turn to reverse up a hill. The T people we have now are at least one generation removed from the T era. Most of the young people who are into Ts now seem to have either grown up with at T in the family, or they like old stuff and a T magically appeared. Either way, I'm glad we have them.

Second, the antique car market is just super soft. It's a buyer's market, and buyers can afford to be choosy. (A month or two ago I saw a 1931 Graham 8 sedan with factory overdrive on ebay. It didn't sell although the asking prices was less than the 1914 T in question, and this was a car with a straight 8 motor that I could drive on the freeway.) CCCA cars have depreciated, and nickel era independent cars are hard to sell now. I think a lot of people are put off by anything you can't order all the parts from a catalog. And there's also a perception that, "you can't drive a 1920s car." I recently heard that from a friend who's daily driver is a 1940 Dodge.

Third, three things to remember when it comes to young antique car people. 1) We probably don't have the time. I spoke to a 90something yo member of our local T club. He compared his teenage years to his grandchildren and great grandchildren and remarked, "When we were in high school, we had free time to get into trouble and play with cars. Now they've got sports, and music lessons, and homework. I think we had it better." 2) The job market is competitive enough that if you're a "professional" you might have to move cross country for the next position. 3) Getting into old cars is damn expensive. Besides paying for garage space, the tools add up. (To say nothing of paint, body, upholstery, and nickel plating.)

Anyway, that's the end of my sermon. I'm grateful to have the MTFCA and the forum. It's an incredible resource and probably necessary to attract and support the next generation.


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by bud delong » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:21 am

In front of model T and other old car people since April,could it be the price? Bud.

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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by NorthSouth » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:57 am

I am 59 yeas old, (the younger end of the old guys)
I got into Model Ts because in the 1960s and 70s Cliff King, Lee Chase, and Ed Chatfield designed Model T picnics in open grass fields and next to streams where families with young children played Model T games with their fathers and grandfathers. And mothers created wonderful covered dish lunches.

Now I am their age and I hit a brick wall when I campaign for these type tours today. 99% of the old guys involved in our hobby come up with lame reasons why young people can't join us on our tours. In my humble opinion the fresh generation is not interested in us because we are not interested in them. We just don't want to change our old ways (tradition) of thinking.

Nevertheless, my dad and I love the hobby as much as ever, are ready to help when asked, and look forward to every Model T event we are lucky enough to be included in.

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Charlie B in N.J.
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:52 am

Yeah, well for all the reasons given about plus one more: Resto-Mod. People want a new car that looks old. In other words that re-done body on new running gear with all, (and I do mean all), the bells & whistles. I found T driving tough out side my development which happens to be the only local place I can actually break the posted speed limit. The last time I drove out side I almost got blasted but good. It would have been the end or darn near it so I quit. Couldn't in good conscience bring people for rides either.
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by DHort » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:20 am

Charlie. I just drove my car from Milwaukee to Minneapolis on the state highways. Next month I will be on the Lincoln Highway to Detroit. I am only going 30mph. If I can do it you can do it. Just keep to the right lane and enjoy.

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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by BuddyTheRoadster » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:12 pm

That honestly depends on the drivers around you. I drove a model A as my daily for about a year in 2004-2005. When I was in "nice" neighborhoods, soccer moms in SUVs tailgated me and gave angry looks because I was in their way. Going through working class neighborhoods, I got smiles and offers to buy it.


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Original Smith » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:27 pm

Another thought. I have two very good established friends in the Model T hobby, that have sons that could have been just as interested in the cars as they are. The reply is, well, they didn't show an interest! Duh! It's up to the parents to create the interest and a very young age by including the kid in the hobby by bringing them to swap meets, and tours, so it gets into their blood. I was lucky, I liked antique cars since I was very young, and I got my father into it! Just the opposite.


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by John bevardos » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:43 pm

Chris ,
exactly my thoughts!! Happens every time here in L.A.

john


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:53 pm

The last several really nice cars have sold to Europeans, who will apparently pay the price AND pay for ground transportation, vehicle documentation, export and import paperwork, overseas shipping container, air-freight as necessary, and loading/unloading fees.

Note to those who delight in installing junk/incorrect parts because they are $ 1.00 cheaper than the correct part: Those cars don't tend to fetch very much $ or interest. In the process of helping new owners sort their cars out and make them reliable, I have found that there often tend to be the same 2-3 obvious items on crap cars which nearly always turn out to be it tip of the iceberg of serious trouble created by or enhanced by owners who just didn't care. Those cheap cars end up costing a fortune (and often kill interest in "T"s forever) for the new owners. Don't be that owner. Cheap cars will nearly always ruin your finances, while the most expensive T you can find will nearly always be the cheapest in the long run.

.
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by NorthSouth » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:36 pm

-

I just had a sparkle of a thought.

What if we identified ways to positively attract younger Model T enthusiasts and made welcoming this new blood to our club a priority? If successful this might increase demand for Model Ts.

I read in the comments above a variety of rational pointing out why the younger demographic is attracted by other hobbies, but, I don't feel much club energy focused on identifying avenues that might welcome them specifically to old Fords, ...and to the fun we share.

There are many reasons that make owning and driving a Model T more attractive than other classic cars. I think that if we were to put our minds together we could figure out a strategy that might pull some of these otherwise distracted younger people in to the club. If we are successful in capturing a few of these wayward souls they could then lead the charge in recruiting more. Then, they might just steer our club away from us old guard types and into modern times. This may ultimately increase demand for Model Ts thereby increasing sales prices. Although, I personally don't really care about that final point.

This was my "sparkle of a thought".
What do you guys think?

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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:06 pm

No. Sorry Dhort. There's no wat I'm going on a highway in a T.
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Dean Kiefer » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:24 pm

Like Larry said, take your kids to swap meets. It paid off for me because now my kids take me to swap meets. The only draw back is now I have to ask my kids if they have room to haul my junk home where before they had to ask me!

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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by NorthSouth » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:37 pm

Charlie, Dhort, and Chris,

Don't be highjacking this thread. Take your banter about driving on highways and start your own post about that.

Brassford is discussing "Why Great Cars Don't Sell" here. Please stick to this topic.

By the way, do you have any creative ideas on how the MTFCA might encourage younger generations to get into the hobby, thereby increasing the sales of Model T Fords around the country?


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by It's Bill » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:55 pm

Said it once, here it is again. If you want young guys to get involved in this hobby, get young girls thinking that Ts are cool. The guys will follow.

Take a girl and her friends for a ride. Teach them to drive a T. Mentor them then. Special girls will love this, and they might just start something good in your area.

Just my thought. Cheers, Bill


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by DickC » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:19 pm

I guess I have to start thinking of our hobby more as a collector of jewelry. We can and do enjoy lesser grade trinkets like watches, bracelets, etc. but we often buy a special piece as a collector or investor to enjoy along with the everyday trinkets. Not everyone has the interest in fine jewelry that will someday be appreciated by later generations. I have (2) T's (1916 touring and a 1912 depot hack), a rare 1927 Marmon, and a 1988 Mustang 5.0 convertible. Like others in the hobby, my interest in cars covers a lot of territory. While I love the Mustang it is my "trinket" to enjoy everyday and I will always go back to the higher grade "jewelry" . I think there are a lot of folks who like myself will invest in high quality cars no matter what their age. Our club, North Carolina Region of the HCCA is growing in numbers of people of all ages and the number of cars within the club. We restrict car activity to cars 1927 or earlier. That tells me there is still a demand for early cars, T's and others. Just my 2 cents.


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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by ericmac » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:51 pm

I happen to be someone who started out young in the hobby, spending a lot of time with my dad working on the T. Then, the hobby was very much of a family affair . I now have graduated from average cars to show cars with good enough mechanics to be cross country drivers. I agree with the sentiment that the less expensive cars actually cost less in the long run, as I am enjoying my 15th nearly problem free year of driving.
I also have one car for sale and even though several people have commented that you couldn't build an equivalent car for my asking price I've had no takers. Maybe that's because one has to pay it all at once instead of over the course of several years. Convincing your other half to spend a significant amount of money on a hobby can be a tremendous, if not insurmountable hurdle.
Thats my $18,500 worth!
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Re: Why great cars don't sell?

Post by Mopar_man » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:04 pm

I'm of the school of thought that you have to bring the kids up in a car show world. Start them young let them get their hands dirty on old stuff and new stuff. Let them make mistakes, Let them start the cars. Let them work the controls while you push moving the car around. If old enough let them drive. I've been bringing my daughter to cars shows from the time she was a baby. Most times I have to do some work in the garage she is out there working with me. One day she said that a girl at school didn't know how to put the batteries in something. My daughter told her she needed a phillips screwdriver. The kid had no idea. In my opinion that's the way to get them involved. If I see a kid looking at one of my cars I always ask if they want to get it.
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