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Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:54 pm
by Dan Hatch
I am working on a couple flywheels for people and have run into a question. These flywheels need pins, but they already have replacement pins in them. I do not know of a second oversized pin. If I put replacement pins in these, odds are they will not stay in. What are we going to do? I am lucky enough to have a supply of flywheels to choose from, but one day that will come to an end. Is anyone doing anything other than just finding another flywheel? Input please. Dan

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:20 pm
by perry kete
Dan,

I haven't done this (yet) but would it be possible to remove the pins, weld the hole shut, and re-drill to the original size pin?

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:54 pm
by Original Smith
How could someone possibly wear out a set of oversize pins?

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:13 pm
by Dan Hatch
By the person that fitted the gear bushings wrong so that they welded to the pins.

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:53 pm
by dobro1956
Dan, I do not know of anyone making a "second" oversize "yet". But it may come to that someday. When the pins are pressed into the flywheel they will "oversize" the hole and a larger replacement pin is needed. If my memory is correct the replacement pin needs to be .003 larger than the hole.

My concern on having a "second" oversize is how much can the flywheel stand. The first original pin oversized the hole aprox .003, The second (replacement pin oversized it another aprox .003 for a total of .006. Now if we were to press in another (second replacement) that would be aprox another .003 for a total of aprox .009 pressure wedging the holes outward. How much can a cast iron flywheel stand . ??????? There is no standard to show what aprox .009 would do to a cast flywheel.

The main problem I see with the current repro replacement pins are they are not made correctly. The original pins had a small ledge on the end pressed into the flywheel. The ledge would keep the pins from working deeper into the hole. The magnets are supposed to keep the pin from working its way back out of the hole. The repro pins do not have that ledge. so it is possible for the repro pins to work there way into the drum and could hang up on the holes in the drum causing catastrophic failure. I have never seen one do that but it could be possible. The original ford .003 oversize replacement pins had the ledge.

When rebuilding my speedster project engine/trans I had what I thought was a good tight pin fall out of the flywheel when I was riveting the ends of the ring gear bolts. It was a modern replacement pin. I could push it with my finger all the way thru the triple gear and into a hole in the drum. I was lucky and dodged a bullet. The other two pins were tight but not very tight as I easily drove them out with a drift. My triple gear bushings fit the pins correctly and were not seized. The pins and bushings were so good shape I was going to re-use them. The failure of the pin falling out , I blame on the repro pins not being correctly made. I have a good stock of used flywheels so I just found another flywheel, that had good useable pins in it. I checked them and they are very tight in the flywheel. They had about .001 wear on the pins, but I would rather have .001 wear than use the repro pins.

There are lots of transmissions out there using the repro pins. Maybe everything will be OK or maybe its just a "ticking time bomb" :( :(

Ill try and post a link to the thread I posted on my pin falling out if I can find it ...

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:58 pm
by dobro1956
Here is the link to the earlier discussion. It mostly applies to my speedster project engine with no magnets on the flywheel, but it has some nice info about the original pins

https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=48165

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:12 am
by Altair
In the day there were several flywheel makers including Dodge it is conceivable that the pins were unique to each manufactured flywheel. Prior to replacing the pins, the holes in the flywheel should be confirmed and then order the appropriate oversize pins or have them custom made. Making pins is not rocket science I made a set when I was 17 in high school.

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:13 am
by Kerry
Who's making or supplying over size pins?

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:26 am
by Kerry
My question is answered by my own research :D
Suppliers have 2 sizes, Langs list .001" over Ford drawings and Snyders list as .003" over drawing size.

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:29 am
by d stroud
I have NO experience with triple gear pins, but, couldn't a new set of repro pins be installed with red Loctite in a flywheel that has already had them installed. I HAVE had some experience with red Loctite and that stuff is amazing. I think the only thing that could beat it would be an interference fit of a couple or three thousands. Just throwing it out there. Dave

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:02 am
by Erik Barrett
There is no reason to worry about double oversized pins or welding up a mangled flywheel. I have stacks of flywheels that don’t need heroic measures to save them. New pins are all they need. Anyone who needs one can pick it up here at no cost whatsoever. Just come and get it. All I ask is be ready to talk about model T’s. These things are not rare enough to justify extreme measures to save them.

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:58 am
by Joe Bell
Gaslight in Urbana Ohio had some oversized ones, they where over on the part that pressed in and where the triple gear ran, would need to ask special for them. Hope this helps

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:13 am
by Dan Hatch
Thanks for the info. Dan

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:28 pm
by DanTreace
Follow up on triple gear pins.

The Ford data is for that part # 3315, Fac. # T-715.

Earlier post, like the one Donnie posted above, list the dimensions of that original triple gear pin. Those dimensions are for the original factory pin, but when correctly removed, the flywheel hole is enlarged slightly by that original pressed in pin.

Triple Pin (3).jpg
Triple Pin (3).jpg (110.28 KiB) Viewed 1580 times
Original T-715, note the end has 1/8" added ridge to really lock it in place. Original pins up to 1919 were type 'N' steel, heat treated. Later pins are type 'EE' steel.




This print is Ford for the triple gear T-715, but had markings on it as acquired at Benson, it lists the 'EE' steel heat treated and is dated to 1923. I believe those markings in pencil are the correct dimensions for the oversize pin, listed in parts catalogs as the 715AR. This one is for field service in replacing a triple gear pin.





The pencil marks show the little 1/8" shoulder is now gone, the overall length of the end in the flywheel is lengthened, and that end is 27/32" long, and the new oversize is .682/.683" which provides a .003" oversize from the factory pin.



Photos Library.jpg
Photos Library.jpg (55.57 KiB) Viewed 1580 times

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:28 pm
by rgould1910
Had the same problem. Car had galled OS pins. No doubt poorly manufactured. Dan McEachern provided .003" OS with the lip. Even though those in the car were also .003 OS, his pins fit tight. As the poster above observed, if you press them out gently, they don't enlarge much if any.

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:00 pm
by Kerry
A re-build that came through my shop some time ago had a simple solution to fix the triple gear loose pin.
They had been replaced with piston wrist pins, what out of I don't know but no reason to mess with it so it went back together with.

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:20 pm
by CudaMan
I haven't tried it, but another possible solution would be to use Loctite 603:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSOpkJu4KEI

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:14 pm
by Dennis_Brown
You say the bronze bushings are welded to the steel pins. Trying something outside the box. What if you took a die grinder and cut a couple of grooves down the sides and flange of the bushing. Cut the flange as deep as possible and Henry a chisel facing down toward the flywheel and give it a couple of moderate hammer blows to see if the bushing will split.
You might also try heating the bushing a little and see if it will gently pry up. The bushing being bronze will expand faster than the steel pin inside it. Bronze being softer than steel may not have damaged the pins. Even if you nicked the pin with the die grinder cutting the vertical groves it could still be possible to still use the pins. You may be out some labor but you may solve your problem also.

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:59 pm
by dobro1956
Dennis, A lot of the time when a triple gear bushing galls itself to the pin, the pin will start spinning in the flywheel. Usually after the pin has spun in the flywheel for any length of time, the flywheel is no longer useable with out extra work to make special pins or fixing the hole ect.

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:05 am
by Dan Hatch
Donnie: Just wondering, what about tacking the pin to the flywheel? I know that it may not work with the “cast “ flywheels, but what about the “billet” flywheels?

Dan: Is there any finish specs on those drawings?
Thanks Dan.

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:09 am
by dobro1956
Dan, I would be hesitant to weld anything to the cast flywheel. But that is just my opinion. I have been a Boilermaker construction welder for over 30 years. Anything cast iron can be welded, "BUT" we avoid it like the plague. Just to many chances for a failure of the weld. With proper heat treat, proper choice of filler material (rods) and then proper stress relieving, a good weld can be achieved. But with good flywheels still available and other options to repair the hole, oversize pins, ect. I think proper welding is the "hard way" to go at it. again, just my personal opinion...

I have no experience with "billet" flywheels, so I can not even offer an opinion on them .......

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:17 am
by Dan McEachern
There are no "billet" flywheels. All model T flywheels are cast iron. Later production flywheels were machined on all surfaces from castings unlike earlier production that only had critical areas machined.

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:19 am
by Kerry
Not that I care one way or the other but there must be some steel flywheels kicking around, mention of them being supplied by Snyders on the forum back in 2006. 7 pounds lighter and part #T-3269-LW

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:16 pm
by Altair
When looking at the issue with triple gear pins coming loose etc. one has to look at the manufacturing process. There were several flywheel manufacturers even Dodge made them for Ford and there was most likely the same number of pin makers. The pins have a .001 tolerance and if the hole also had a .001 tolerance there could be possibly up to a .002 difference. With the demands these pins are required to withstand a .002 tolerance could be fatal. Some pins have the enlarged collar to .004 and some don't, most of the flywheels I have seen the pins are pressed flush to the inside of the flywheel. This begs the question does the pin have no collar and is pressed flush or does the pin have a collar and is pressed flush for a tight locking fit. If the pin is pressed out the way it went in very little damage to the hole will occur, however it is pressed through from the back side considerable damage could occur if the pin has the .004 lip, if no lip probably no damage. I purchased replacement pins with no lip just the enlarged portion that goes into the flywheel and all three very tight pressed in from the backside and flush.
To be sure you have to measure what you have got or if things don't look good throw it away and get another one there are lots out there. New bushings are usually somewhat undersize and require honing or reaming to fit.

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:02 pm
by Les Schubert
I guess I’m one of the fortunate few that has one of the steel flywheels

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:45 pm
by John kuehn
Since flywheels are in this topic and have been mentioned I think there been some good ones thrown away when we find rusted up and seized engines and haul them to the scrap yard. This is one engine item that’s probably overlooked when buying old parts at swap meets. I don’t think I’ve ever seen or run across NOS flywheels at swap meets that I remember. There was probably a bunch around after Ford quit making T parts in the 1940’s but I guess we will never know.

Re: Triple Gear Pins

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:23 pm
by Dan McEachern
Dan- I just sent you an e-mail regarding pins with oversize press fit diameters.
Dan McEachern