MTFCA Forum

Developing a rear axle low howl at road speeds. Functions just fine, only a bit noisy.

Opened up the pinion housing to take a look. All new parts in 2006, so there are some miles on this Ruckstell axle.

The pinion gear seems fine.

The ring gear has a bit of wear showing on the face, and may be the cause of this low howl.
Any quick fix like removing the single paper gasket on the housing and set the pinion a few thousand deeper?

Rather not take apart the whole Ruckstell for some noise. Opened it up to see if any broken bits, but all seems satisfactory, except some noise.

Couple more shots.

Ring gear wear in about in center which seems right

The wear pattern on the ring gear is a little shallow...inevitably, if you make the pinion depth greater, the backlash will decrease and you're going to have to disassemble to adjust.

Dan looks like you have a really good mesh going on. Did the howling come on gradually? May be from the thrust side of the ring gear. How does the lash feel?

Just throwing out some ideas,

Hank

I enlarged the photos and yes it does look a little deep after further looks.

What is the gear ratio. 11/40, 12/40, 13/40 or 13/39? The only way to properly check the gears is to remove the drivers side housing and bolt the drive shaft assembly to the passenger (Ruckstell) side. You can then check the backlash or clearance which should be 0.005-0.010. Rotating the pinion gear with the drive shaft will reveal if the gears are noisy.

Chaffin
Might you have the sides reversed. I thought the Ruckstell was on the left (usually drivers side)?

Hank and Herb

The gears are std. 11/40 Ford ratio. I could remove the passenger side and check lash. Just a lot of work to check. And if off, which it may be a little (runs good, just some noise developing over time) would have to disassemble the entire Ruckstell to move the ring gear, just don't want to do all that.

There is no in-out play of the passenger axle shaft, bronze thrust looks good, but there is a slight amount of in-out on the drivers side, the ball bearing thrust should provide security to the ring gear. When pulled and pushed that tad of movement, can't feel any moving of the ring gear at all. Suspect the axle movement is from worn fiber washer between axles.

Since I am 'chasing' a noise from suspected rear, could be the driveshaft, so will look over it first, the u-joint seems a bit too loose for and was surprised to see such little grease, just oily film, as being washed by oil, and I always chock it full with the grease gun. And don't remember if the front bushing was a needle bearing, need to check that, the pinion is modern bearing and it seems good from outside inspection.

After removing the drive shaft, and I put the ball cap 'up-side down' with oil hole down, to prevent oil seep to u-joint, that doesn't work Going back to Ford way.

Looking at that 4th main; looks like some migration of the babbitt into the hole. I don't think in my OP that that groove is needed. Do you have the plug installed in the tail shaft shaft? Have you checked the inside diameter of the 4th and outside of the tail shaft? Babbitt looks a little on the thin side, maybe.
Adding to; remember this is a bearing surface and needs to be as smooth as the mains/rods on the crank.

Mark

Noticed that, and yes some wear to the Babbitt 4th, not real bad, but had a fresh .003" over cap and fitting that helps quite a bit. So will do that.

As for the noise, suspect now driveshaft. Pulled the u-joint and noted wear in places on the collar toward the front bushing.

Cleaned up the driveshaft oil and grease and spied all the needles of that bearing are stuck. None turn. Seems the bearing walked into the u-joint collar.

Installed by me, following instructions, and checked to see the bearing was below the bore, knowing that. It is a press fit only and may have moved over time. Don't know, could be my fault, the rear ran quiet when put together, but now the driveshaft soft steel is running on hardened steel, maybe causing my low howl.

Anyway the driveshaft isn't shiny in the bushing area as normal with Ford soft metal bushing, so am going to replace the needle with a bronze bushing.

Maybe all these little fixes will reduce the noise. Good to look at moving parts from time to time

Latest follow-up.

The needle didn't walk at all.......so not's the needle faulty but the pinion bearing got loose.

So the u-joint walked as its pinned to the driveshaft, and there is now .020" gap on the nice pre-load I placed on the modern bearing years ago on install.
Maybe the roller bearing wore or maybe the lock collar moved, anyway time to fix.

That will get repaired as likely the cause of the whole developing low growl, let the ring mesh get loose, and let the needle get crushed, due to the movement of the driveshaft.

Will now use Lock-Tite on that locking collar instead of only relying on the set screw if that is what moved. Figuring out the noise is always a chore, but now have measured some gap that has to be taken up.

Les, Of course your right. I got up on the wrong side of the bed today also. Not my day. Thanks for correcting me. Glen

Does the needle bearing replace the front drive shaft bushing. If so you do not have a front thrust bearing for the u-joint. Big mistake. Never throw away the thrust surface. If you have a modern bearing Drive Shaft Spool never rely on the Clamp ring to keep the proper Drive Shaft end play. It lets go with time. always set end play with the front Drive Shaft thrust Bushing . You want no end play or the Ring Gear and pinion clearance will be changing. Not Good. A modern bearing Drive Shaft spool is ok but stick with Fords method of setting end play and clearance. Then it makes no difference if the clamp ring lets go.

^ And rivet the U-joint to the drive shaft.

Mark and Glen

The u-joint is riveted, always have done that for sure. With any pinion set-up, Ford, or modern.

Have had good success with the modern pinion, this time it got loose for some reason. Like the modern taper and sealed bearing modern pinion set up, and will stick with it, except to be sure the lock collar stays locked.

As for the needle bearing, it is sold as replacement for the bronze bushing, but has no thrust face. So the riveted u-joint collar rode on it, since the driveshaft moved back with the gear play in the modern pinion that happened in my axle. Allowed impingement on needle bearing, crushed the outer carriage housing, some blue from heat, and twisted up and locked up the tiny needles from rotating.




Have only used a few of these needle front bearings, but don't anymore. A new Ford type bronze bushing will used and will be faced off with just a few thousands of clearance, per Ford manual.

That will help ring/pinion mesh to be maintained, if something later goes foul from my install again.

Right on Dan. Ford knew what he was doing and a needle bearing here is a waste of time and money. The modern bearing Drive Shaft spool is a good idea but needs the end play insurance of the front bushing. Glen

I have only installed one of the needle bearing. No idea how it worked out, the car has never been started or driven. It is what the customer wanted so is what got used. Not something I would use. It did however get thrust washers behind the U-joint which was pined to the shaft.

Dump that needle bearing! They need to run on a hard shaft, and drive shafts are way too soft. the only reason it has not destroyed the shaft surface is there is really no lateral load at that end of the drive shaft. Another case of a really poorly designed "improvement".

You know, Dan, the first picture of the needle bearing LOOKED to me like the needles were skewed and I thought it was the picture/angle and was not willing to jump in with what could just have been a WAG. It is a good thing that you don't accept that "all Model T's make noise". I've heard that frequently lately and sometimes it is followed by serious mechanical destruction, and hope that those who are inclined to give that advice think harder and give more thought to it, before simply dismissing a noise as routine.

Ran when parked.

That covers a lot of ground.

Scott

So true. Once you begin to ‘become one’ with your T, you appreciate soothing sounds unlike any other antique car.

Some noise can be common, the typical groaning of the straight cut planetary gears winding up as you go to high. Just part of the charm, along with certain rattles, squeaks and creaks from aged on years.

But you do learn to hear ‘new’ noise and when you do, take ear. As you posted, could be your T is letting you know to peek or poke around some.