Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

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ivaldes1
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Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by ivaldes1 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:35 pm

So I had my new kevlar bands on and was attempting to put on the last washer and nut on the last band when the inevitable dropped the washer and nut into the nether regions. But have no fear! I had tied a thread to it for just this sort of problem and proceeded to try to fish it out. To no avail! It was stuck. So after several methods of persuasion and foul language the thread broke. I pulled the plug and drained the oil. Low and behold the nut and washer were right above the drain hole still tied together with thread. But! they seem to be stuck on some sort of grate on either side of the drain hole. They do not seem to be able to come out. What can I do now?

-- IV


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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by Burger in Spokane » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:51 pm

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More people are doing it today than ever before !

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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by CudaMan » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:57 pm

If you have a flexible wand wit a magnet on the end, push it up through the oil drain hole and let it grab the washer and nut. Then see if you can push them up the back wall of the pan until you can see them from above through the inspection cover hole. Once they are up there and you can see them, grab them with a multi finger gripping wand and pull them out. Good luck!
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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by AZTerry » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:37 am

I did that once, missed a hole with the rags and the nut found it. Found nut at drain hole (no magnets). I used a long piece of mechanics wire, bent it into a U shape, ran one end of the u-wire through the middle of the nut and the other end on the outside of the nut, then I pushed the two ends together up the side of the oil pan. As is recall it took about six tries, but finally the two ends of the wire appeared in the top of the hogs head where I could retrieve them and pulled the nut out without loosing it again.

The original pan has a sludge trap with a rectangular hole in it just above the drain plug, that is most likely what you are seeing. I suspect you can use a screwdriver to free the nut and washer up if it is stuck.

Hope this helps.

Terry


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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by Joe Bell » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:01 pm

An older friend had this happen, he took a couple tube socks put them in the starter hole and rolled the engine over slowly, they came up and around and he got them out, make sure you count the socks, it will make a really big mess if one is left in there. Hope this helps, thanks Ray Miras from Michigan for the story he told me years ago. Joe


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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by Dennis_Brown » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:49 pm

Try the wire method from the bottom but use 12 gauge copper wire and there's no magnetic attraction other than to the nut and washer. Also you cached bend it easily to work it around the drums.

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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by ivaldes1 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:25 pm

I tried the U wire method. That pushed the nut up somewhere. I tried my borescope to try and find it. Couldn't so the hogshead has to come off!

-- IV

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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by kmatt » Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:59 am

Well; The positive is that at least you can change out that bad low speed notch while you have the hogshead off.

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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:24 pm

Hogshead is off! I was able to rotate the magneto and retrieve the errant nut and washer. Now I am attempting to replace the notch and pedal support.

Why are the new notch rivet holes different sizes and the rivet only fits through one side and does not go through the other side?

I cut the head off the old rivet on both sides with an angle grinder and have pounded it a lot with a punch but it is not moving. Is there a way to get the rivet out other than drilling a lot?

Thanks in advance.

-- IV


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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:31 pm

I select a punch that is smaller than the rivet body...then select a # drill that is just larger than the punch. Drill both ends of the rivet about 1/3 of the way through. You can typically beat the rivet out with the punch when thus relieved. You MUST support the notch and not allow the pedal boss in the hog's head to be the support for this beating. It can lead to serious damage to the hogs head if you do not support it properly. The small hole allows you to drill through the notch, your shaft, and still enlarge the hole (wherever the drill comes out). If the hole in the pedal shaft is not perfect, your drill will follow it wherever it goes and will still make a clean, round hole in the notch. If not per the original drawing, I still think it is a great idea of the supplier and appreciate it.
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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:35 pm

Thanks Scott, I read your explanation but am still not sure what the smaller rivet hole in the new notch is for.


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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:04 pm

Drill it out. Insert rivet. Pein over.
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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:21 pm

Drilled the notch a bunch on both sides with a drill press. I have not hit the shaft yet. I have it on an anvil now so hopefully it won't get damaged. Hitting it with a 5 lb sledge and a punch. Tried hammer and punch on both sides. Not moving at all. What else can I try?
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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by DanTreace » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:39 pm

IV

Easy way is to completely restore with new parts. IMO, cut off the old low speed shaft near the pedal, and then place a new shaft. Works best too if you replace the low speed support. Then with new notch, you have it all done factory.

Trying to drill out the old rivet in an old shaft can lead to an oversize hole, and the support can get loose. Lots of pedal pressure on those parts, rivets need securing.
IMG_2752.JPG
Parts pre-drilled and tested on the bench before final riveting, that low speed notch has smaller pilot hole, used to align as you use a 1/4" drill to do the shaft and notch together, makes a clean straight hole for the new rivet.
IMG_2761.JPG
IMG_2756.JPG
IMG_2773 (800x600).jpg
IMG_2774 (800x600).jpg
Last edited by DanTreace on Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:42 pm

cannot tell from your picture, but am hoping you are actually on/in the rivet.

sometimes they need heat at this point to encourage the pin to separate from the shaft.

followed by more force from hammer and punch

start this process by filing the notch and pin face, so that the outline of the pin can be definitely determined to ensure you are drilling IN the pin and not 1/2 in the pin and 1/2 in the notch. After filing and heating some, you should visually see an obvious ring/separation of the pin/rivet vs the notch which will ensure you're drilling where you really want. From the picture it is impossible to verify what you've drilled and what is being struck by the hammer/punch.
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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:54 pm

Thanks Dan, I think you are right. This is a mess and a new shaft and new pedal pin (I went ahead and bought 4 for 25 cents each) are $21 delivered. I have the clutch pedal support and had planned to change that out too including doing the o-ring trick for oil leaks. It is going to be a photo finish though. I am wanting to participate in the Texas T party this coming week. -- IV

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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:55 pm

Still wondering why one hole of the notch is smaller than the other and the rivet does not go through?

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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by DanTreace » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:02 pm

The maker puts a little note in the pkg. At least one in the last notch received. Just a mention that one side isn't drilled to rivet diameter.

The idea is you place the notch on the shaft, align to the shaft hole, and then drill thru the 1/4" side of the notch, into the 1/4" hole of the shaft, and then exit into the 'smaller' hole on the other side.....keeps the drill on target. You must have a correct size and straight hole thru both the shaft and notch, to accept the rivet, to have a very tight rivet job.
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford


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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:32 pm

I have found that (many of) the repro shafts have the pedal rivet hole and the notch rivet hole to be too close to each other by up to 1/16". This often causes the pedal to bottom out on the hog's head well before the pedal has rotated (and shifted over) fully.

I do not doubt that this has led to some mistaking the pedal bottoming out, for a "firm pedal" when in low. I believe that this may account for some of the slipping/overheating damage seen which has been on transmissions. Owners believe the band is tightly down on low, when it is nowhere near locked up properly and is simply bottomed on the hog's head boss.

I got tired of fixing them (shafts) and now make my own, as I was loathe to modify the hog's head to accomodate an incorrectly made part.

Mock everything up prior to peining the rivets and ensure full/proper rotation can be had. Some hog's heads will accept this minor discrepancy and others will not.
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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:34 pm

I am going to try to drill the current one out with putting in a new pedal shaft as plan B. Drilling this out is slow. I am using a Dewalt titanium metal bit but it takes a very long time to get anywhere. Is there a secret to drilling these out quicker or quickly?

-- IV

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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by DanTreace » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:33 pm

The practical way IMO, is to carefully grind or flat file the surface off the old rivet head, to expose a circle of the rivet shank in the pedal or notch. Then using some penetrate oil, identify the outline of the rivet shank, and use a center punch to mark for the drill.

Select a drill size smaller than the rivet shank, and drill down a depth to about 2 -3 diameters of the rivet. Use a drift punch just less than the drill size, and with swift hard blows of heavy mallet, drive the rivet out.

Doing this work on a bench, with a bench vise to secure for good hammering is IMO essential. Trying to hammer and drive a rivet from a wiggling low speed shaft still in the hogs head is just too much effort or satisfaction of the end result.

Cut the low pedal off, and use a new low speed shaft.
IMG_0842.JPG
Low pedal cut off, note surface ground to be able to locate the center of the old rivet.
IMG_0835.JPG
Driven out rivet, still with the drift punch in it.
IMG_0827.JPG
View of old rivet with hole made by the drill bit. Note it is off center some too, that will happen most times, hard to be dead center. Another reason to use a new low speed shaft.
IMG_0851 (700x525).jpg
Align drilling the hole in the pedal to the new shaft so the new rivet will go straight in.
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford

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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by ivaldes1 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:33 pm

Dan that is an outstanding solution that I went ahead and ordered a new shaft hopefully arriving tomorrow. However, since I am going to Texas T Party Friday I cheated and took my hogshead to a machine shop. Forgive my weakness. They drilled out the mess I had made, filled in the oversize hole with welding then re-bored it, even put the notch and new clutch support with o-ring trick back on neat as you please. For more money than your way. But I will do it your way the next time. So the bands are in, the nut and washer retrieved, the cams are new, I've cleaned up the mating surfaces which where dirty as could be and I am going to attempt to put it all back together tomorrow and test drive.
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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by Mark Nunn » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:42 am

It looks like you are missing the wood block (at least the left one) between the pan ear and frame. Maybe the nut is hidden in the shadows but I don't see one.

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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by ivaldes1 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:38 pm

Probably isn't a wood block there. What is the wood block for? -- IV

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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by RustyFords » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:54 pm

ivaldes1 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:38 pm
Probably isn't a wood block there. What is the wood block for? -- IV
They provide support/reinforcement.

My car was missing them too. I bought a couple from Lang’s and will be installing them this weekend.
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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by ivaldes1 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:04 am

Possibly why my frame was bent. What is Lang's part number for it and more or less where does it go?

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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by Mark Nunn » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:59 am

The blocks fit inside the frame rails behind the pan ears. A horizontal bolt goes through the outside of the frame rail, through a hole in the block and a hole in the pan ear.
IV wood block.jpg
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The block part number is 3083. If you buy the bolt kit, Lang's part number is 3083BS. Don't get a bolt kit from Chaffin's. I did this summer and the bolts were too short to install cotter pins. The small bolt was 3/16" too short!


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Re: Kevlar-ing along when the nut dropped into nether regions.

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:42 am

Rather than suggest not to buy from a supplier, why not contact them and let them make you whole?

Chaffins is an absolutely top notch operation and will NOT make a customer eat a bad product.

Besides, if they aren't told, they may have more stock on the shelves that they will inspect rather than duplicate the disappointment.
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