Is a water pump necessary?

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modelt46
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Is a water pump necessary?

Post by modelt46 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:14 pm

The discussion of the need for a water pump breaks into a great battle/
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Steve Jelf
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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:17 pm

Davy Crockett never used one.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:22 pm

And look what happened to him...
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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Richard G » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:34 pm

that question will bring as many different opinions as what type oil do i use,--here is my opinion on this subject, if the cooling system is in fairly good condition ---radiator not full of what don't belong in it ,build up of scale mouse nest, and the timing is correct, carb fuel mixture set a little rich,there should be no need for the pump, model t's do boil at times, there made to, just don't add water too soon after a boil, like Henry says pull to the side let it cool some let it idle while adding a little water, idling while adding water keeps the heat from collecting to any one spot that can cause a block to crack. kinda like when welding cast, --u-- keep tapping with the hammer to spread the hot spot over a larger airea till. it cools NO, NO WATER PUMP NEEDED.

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Rob Patterson » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:11 pm

Someone once posted on these pages that "the most satisfying sound he'd ever heard was the loud clang of his old waterpump hitting the bottom of his trash can".
However, after 12 years of use, I removed mine and happily gave it to a mate who really wanted it. I hope its not requiring constant tightening, is not constantly leaking and not constantly removing paint from his car, like it was mine.
Both my T's run just as cool, without a pump as they did with one. BUT...... I haven't been in a slow moving parade on a really hot summers day since.
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it." HENRY FORD

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Jugster » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:28 pm

coolant man.jpg
If your engine and radiator are not clogged with gunk, you should be okay without a water-pump. This will be especially true if you have a flat-tube radiator rather than a round-tube radiator. If you climb steep hills, your engine will run hotter and you'll feel the heat coming up through the floorboards, which may feel unsettling to a novice. It's okay; the engine can run that hot without a problem.

I find that the trick to running as cool as possible is to keep the radiator topped off with coolant. The Model T Ford's cooling system is not a pressurized, sealed system and it will blow excess coolant overboard. It will also gradually "consume" coolant and this is why it is necessary to keep up with topping off the radiator. Start the day with a top-off. It ain't rocket science.

Yes, I suppose a water-pump will cause the engine to run cooler, but the type of water pumps applicable to the Model T are known for developing leaks and of course, running the additional accessory saps a bit of engine power. This is another one of those times when the mantra, "Henry knew what he was doing," holds true. A well-tuned, tweaked-up, well maintained Model T doesn't need anything more than its original equipment.

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Richard G » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:43 pm

I DO AGREE WITH BOTH YOU, BUT ALL SO NOTHING CAN TAKE THE PLACE OF A BREEZE THROUGH THE RADIATOR AT SPEED.


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Craig Leach » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:50 pm

I run water pumps on both of my T's because I have very fine radiator cores and they don't thermosiphon well in parades and long hills. The choice of cores is my fault not Henries. Oh and I live in Arizona. I'm so happy this came up again. I hate to get on these touchie subjects because there re so many opinions. But I have a request from a friend thats having over heating issues, mostly because his engine has been moified and the overhead valve head does not thermospihon well, the exhaust, alternator and steering box (not stock ) are all in the way of any water pump I have seen. years ago I removed a electric water pump from an other friends T because it had failed as it was not the best quality pump. has anyone tried an electric water pump with any success when running a overhead? There are some realy nice ones on the market nowdays. Thanks.


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:52 pm

Proof again that only the heading of a thread is typically read, and that the original posting/words are meaningless.

Kudos to Darel for a clever posting that is going badly awry
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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by babychadwick » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:52 pm

No.

Now having said that there are many variables that might change that. Whether it is poor radiator, a hopped up engine, parades, driving fast . . . .

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Richard G » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:56 pm

ON THIS RADIATOR HEATING SUBJECT, HAVING BEEN IN THE RESTORATION OF MANY OF CARS,THE WORST THING ONE CAN DO TO A RADIATOR IS USE THE WRONG PAINT,YOU'D BE BETTER OFF TO NOT PAINT IT A ALL. SPECIAL PAINT IS AVAILABLE FOR THIS JOB.


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:14 pm

Further reinforcing my theory...
Scott Conger

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:15 pm

Darel, sarcasm is dead.
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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by lesvonnordheim » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:24 pm

I have been using a Texas T water pump for over 15 yrs. and am very happy with the results. My T is bored .080" over and would Boil easily before installing the water pump. I have a Brass Works flat tube radiator which is clean.....also, I cleaned out the water passages in the block/head with acid during the re-build over 20 yrs. ago. Before adding the water pump, on long hills my T would boil out up to a gallon of coolant. With the water pump, I very seldom have to add any coolant...….I keep it 1/4 down in the upper tank. I no longer worry about over heating.
I also use 10-30 synthetic oil which many think is a waste...….however, after 20 years of use I have not needed to adjust the rod or main bearings. Also, have a 1/2" outside oil line running from the hog's head to the side of the pan. It's home made and was installed during the engine rebuild before large size outside oilers were available. If you do not have heating problems like I have had....then don't add a water pump. The water pump I am using is a Texas T pump having a stainless shaft and modern seals/bearings. There is nothing to maintain! No packing to tighten, grease or replace. The Water pump has been on my car for over 15 yrs. with no problems. Those that are familiar with model A's know they have a water pump....the model T block cooling passages are very similar to T blocks. From model A's on you will find a water pump on Ford's.

Les


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Original Smith » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:17 am

I ran a water pump for over 40 years, and never had a problem with it. It was a Blackhawk brand. About 10 years ago, I decided to remove it to see how the car would do. The car didn't care! Now I have to keep the water level in the radiator a little lower than I previously did, but other than that I'm sort of glad I removed it. My car lost a little weight, and gained a tiny bit of power because of it.


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Burger in Spokane » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:31 am

What kind of oil should I run in my water pump ?
More people are doing it today than ever before !

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:35 am

A better look:

alamo.jpg
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by jiminbartow » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:53 am

Makes a good wheel chock.

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Duey_C » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:00 am

For me.
The 18 with a 23 engine, top rebuilt and snug, knocks like a door downstairs, needed help after I started it, 30 some year old "rebuild", he over heated at the very notion and I put a pump from the pile on the engine. Happy.
He doesn't need the pump anymore and it will go.
I like the smell of a warm/hot engine.
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by d stroud » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:04 am

Darel and Scott, ;) ;) ;) ;) Dave
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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Humblej » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:19 am

Guys, please stop posting pros and cons of water pumps, you are being put on, he is pulling your leg, he is jerking your chain, he is winding you up, he is busting your chops.

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by dlmyers » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:32 am

I think this discussion proves "Poe's Law".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law
The old forums are a gold mine of information.


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by bud delong » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:25 am

I think the question should be is needed or was needed.With the dirt,sand,mud roads of the times many thousands thought so.When the Model T replaced the horse it was to work instead of play.Now most experts who have flat tube cores and seldom run in the dirt,sand,or mud state they do not need one.Yesterday i ran a long slow parade with our 14 and the moto meter ran just below center but we were on pavement and not in deep mud.If you think [you] need one,and if [you] don't do what makes it work for you. Back in the day were there many places with compressed air that you could use to blow the dirt and bugs out?? :D Bud.


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Chris Barker » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:14 am

Well, I've scanned through all these replies.

Wouldn't a simple NO have sufficed?


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by John Codman » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:27 am

If the rest of the cooling system is in good shape - no. If it's not, put it in good shape and the answer is still no.

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:44 am

The guys have pretty much covered it opinion wise. Here's my 2 cents from experience, As stated, and by my experience, if the cooling system is clean & in good shape the pump doesn't seem to help a bit. I had a "27 Tudor that had one on it and I left it on because I wasn't overheating so don't fix what's not broken. I also had a '23 Tudor that had one. The former owner said he had it installed because he used the car mostly in parades and it stopped his overheating. Also don't fix what isn't broken. But as stated a cooling system in good order should not need a pump.
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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:56 am

So funny how this topic and others of the like with added improvements are so frowned upon. Purist?

OK.., if a water pump is not needed with a thermostat, just remove them from your modern car. See how the performance is affected. Ill regardless of compression, controlling engine temperature is of atmost importance in the internal combustion engine. Henry Ford was no genius, he was a user of others talent and a total tyrant. He cut corners anyway possible to make money.

Remember why all those accessories came about to make a Model T more reliable and competitive with other makers. Water pumps, thermostats, distributors where standard in most other makes, but Henry low balled the others at the expense of reliability. Yes simple.

To put down others for using known improvement added accessories that really do not detract from the value, but add reliability is not doing the hobby any favors. It was an acceptable practice in the era. Let bygones be bygones.

My $0.03 worth,

Hank

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:31 am

My car had a pump and it had a worn bushing, kept leaking. In it’s day, it served the purpose.
A cheap alternative to a properly functioning radiator....
After I took mine off, I try flushing, CLR and other methods, I had it better, but still ran a little hot.
In other words, before the modern radiator was made available, it was cheaper to install a water pump, than to get an old round tube radiator cleaned out and functioning properly again.

A friend hooked me up with a lightly used flat tube and all is right with the Model T Gods !! :D
I don’t need no stinking water pump !! :lol:


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by yukonjack » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:22 pm

Steve Jelf wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:35 am
A better look:


alamo.jpg
water pump flag.png


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:00 pm

Jack

it's nice to see someone that gets it!

I like your flag a lot!
Scott Conger

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Burger in Spokane » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:30 pm

I have converted my water pump to deliver Marvel Mystery Oil to my gasoline.
More people are doing it today than ever before !


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Burger in Spokane » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:31 pm

:mrgreen:
More people are doing it today than ever before !

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Thermosiphon with engine off.

Post by Novice » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:41 pm

I have two Ts. both have 26 engines. one has a water pump. and one does not. The T without the water pump has pretty good temp differential between the top tank and the lower hose. Had it out today 93 degrees drove car for a little over a mile monomotor barley showing red at bottom. Turned engine off temp rose to slightly above mid point (summer) Radiator level filled to point it doesn't boil over when engine is stopped and a check with a infrared thermometer showed thermosiphon still working with engine off. still sucking the heat out of the engine block. after a hour or two radiator tank is still too hot to touch but block is much cooler. Now on the 26 with the water pump. not near as much differential temp change between top tank and lower hose. forced cooling seems to make top and bottom close in temp. and when I turn the engine off all hell breaks loose with monomotor pegging. steam and water gushing out the over flow for about a minuet. the water pump design does not seem to allow water to flow with engine off and no thermosiphon. Some of the large brass water pumps. such as Butler Ford 1918 appear to have some clearance in the large pump vanes that might allow for some thermal water flow when the pump is not running ? My Observations. I am not pro or con on water pumps but subscribe to the idea that if it aint broke dont fix it.

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:47 am

There were several styles of T radiators so the answer to the general question "the need for a water pump" is "it all depends". N/R/S radiators had a water pump built into the core; then there were several types flat tubs, round tubes, honey comb, 3 row flat tube and other after-market suppliers, not to mention size (brass, low cowl, high cowl). Then there is the issue of water versus antifreeze and various ratios of them - type and color of paint - additives - driving habits (in-town, parades, highway) - fan and water outlet neck types - usage of splash pans (yes/no) - and general preventive maintenance (some or none). Doing some very rough math using a minimum of combinations on the various categories: 6 radiator types X 3 heights X 5 fluid combinations X 3 paint combos X 3 driving X 4 fan combo's X 2 splash pan X 2 maintenance = 12,960 possible responses of Yes or No. :o


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Gonenorth » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:00 am

Yes! I have a water pump. Last I looked, its laying in a pile of crap someplace in the back of my garage. My car runs fine without it.


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Susanne » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:02 pm

I had one, thing was so worn out it leaked like a sieve, probably a gallon or 2 a day. So I took it off, and ya know what? It stopped leaking...

:roll: .......... :lol: .......... :mrgreen:

I could never figure out wy the thing didn't seem to be pumping water. After all, you'd expect to see some kind of flow. So when I pulled the thing off, I noticed 2 things - one, the vanes in the pump looked cute, but looked more like a paddlewheel than something intended to move water in any direction other than in a circle. The second thing I noticed was the hole from pump to block was about the size of a nickle. So even IF it was pushing water, it sure couldn't push much through that little tiny hole. Seriously - the worn shaft was probably moving more water. Tho it sure looked fancy hanging off the side of the motor and all...

I do have a restored Atlas pump I want to try (once I get some packing for it, and readjust the bearings)... but all in all, it seems to be just fine without the water mover.

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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by TonyB » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:38 pm

It’s a great subject.
I just learned “Poe’s Law” which states “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won't mistake for the genuine article.”.
So we can make any assumption we want

The simple answer is NO if everything is working correctly

The answer is MAYBE if you have less than perfect equipment

The answer is YES if your radiator is shot 😊

I must remember Poes law, at eighty I still like to learn something new every day. It makes up for the stuff I forget😊
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1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Wayne Mims » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:01 pm

Is there anyone that has a Speedster that has a hopped-up engine with an overhead cam used electric water pump and how did it work this engine is no longer 20 horsepower it's probably 60 it has a model a crank in it it has an oil pump system it has TgoHead it has a 3-speed automatic transmission hook to it so I'm wondering how to keep it cool


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Humblej » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:10 pm

I blame Darel for this joke gone terribly wrong.


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Re: Is a water pump necessary?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:22 pm

Ervin an Atlas pulley driven works the best in super performance. Stays right at 180 degrees.

Hank

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