Creation of new rewooding plans?

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
Thomas-Jull
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:12 am
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Jull
Location: Oakland

Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by Thomas-Jull » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:26 pm

I originally posted this in the 26-27 Roadster Wood topic but have realized that it would probably get more feedback from members if I started a new thread. Dan Treace has responded on that thread already and I thank him for that. Maybe for convenience he will copy it onto this one too?

I am an architect and have been contemplating drawing plans for rewooding our cars. I would not be copying Mel’s plans but would be compiling information from forum members as necessary. I have rewooded a 24 Touring but no other cars. I also own a 25 Roadster that has no upholstery in place but it’s not original wood. I would do it for the challenge and the love of the hobby so they would be free to all those that need them and would be in pdf so no shipping cost. However, I in no way wish to undermine Mel’s estate. Can anyone confirm for 100% certainty that his plans are no longer available? I would also like to hear from others about their concerns about me doing this.

To respond to Dan - the plans would be such that anyone can print them out at any scale they like including full size. The only thing that limits printing these days is the width of the roll of paper. I definitely agree that developing plans would take much work. Most of which would be researching the correct angles, dimensions, curves, etc. I would need the assistance of this forum members to measure their original wood and/or loan me any pieces that they have.

I would start with the 21-25 Touring and move on from there. However, I would develop the plans in such a way that a particular piece could be released before the entire set of plans for that particular car has been completed. The order would be based off of what information I receive from you as well as your opinions on what pieces need to be replaced the most.

Feedback would be greatly appreciated

Thomas


John kuehn
Posts: 519
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by John kuehn » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:05 pm

I posted on the other thread about having purchased a set of Roadster plans from Mel Miller years ago for the 1919 Roadster that I finally restored. If I remember they were for 14-22 bodies and in the plans there were notes about the minor variations in these bodies that you could refer to when you were building the body wood structure for a paticular car. I may be not entirely correct about the year dates but they were somewhere in that range for the low style bodies.
I made a few pieces from the plans and after going to a swap meet I heard about Fordwood and purchased the rest of the wood from them. This was more than 30 years ago and things probably have changed since then.
I have to say that it would be a good thing if plans for Model T wood structure were avaliable. The T wood suppliers would still have a market to sell the wood kits since it is easier to buy the wood. There would still be those who have the tools and skill to make their own wood if they had the plans.
If the plans were available to buy that would be a good way to promote the hobby for future generations I think. And even better would be to compile the plans for the Model T’s and have them at the MFTCA for T hobbyist to use for their T projects.

By now T plans that became avaliable to buy years ago have been used and copied over and over even though they were copyrighted. I don’t know how long the copyright laws last and that would probably be something that would need to checked into if the plans would be avaliable to use from the MTFCA or from anybody else. The plans are out there somewhere and passing them on the next generation would help to preserve the hobby.

I would think a lot of Miller’s plans are in the hands of T hobbyists. There was a time you would see WTB adds and people selling T plans on old car websites. That’s where I sold the plans that I had several years ago.
And again having body wood plans available would really help the popularity of Model T’s to kept alive.


John kuehn
Posts: 519
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by John kuehn » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:21 pm

Thanks Thomas for having an interest in preserving or coming up with a way to provide wood structure plans for T hobbyists. Dan raises some good points about how maybe to go about it.
If I still had the plans I had I would donate them to someone if they were to be used in a proper way to promote the hobby. Just a thought for others. My opinion of course.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 1563
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:35 pm

John

In general, Copyright lasts for 75 years.

To all: creation of plans, for free, is an admirable project. Remember, though, if I copy someone's novel in longhand, and sell it, I still have violated copyright law. So simply copying Mel's work to a new format doesn't seemto me to make it a legally saleable item...free, I suppose it's fine. With the Miller family apparently out of the picture in the protection of original material (not seeking redress on copies in the hobby), I think risk of lawsuit is remote, though I like most people, don't live or guide my life on a basis of likelyhood of prosecution!

Mel spent many years on this, and I think it would be a similar undertaking for anyone else. My hat's off to anyone up to the challenge.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 1576
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:49 pm

I expect the Ford body books would be helpful on a project like this. A large part of the work would be researching measurements.

21-25 TOURING BODY PARTS.jpg
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

User avatar

HornsRus
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:07 pm
First Name: Charley
Last Name: Shaver
Location: MO

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by HornsRus » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:23 pm

don't get me started on wooding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.charley


John kuehn
Posts: 519
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by John kuehn » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:57 pm

Thomas-J
What might be helpful is doing a search on rewooding on this forum from years back to the present. I just did a general search on the net using the term Model T rewooding and several posts from the MTFCA forum came up with members pictures and comments. Hope this helps. Read the comments as there are interesting information about plans on some of them.


Philip Lawrence
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:42 am
First Name: Philip
Last Name: Lawrence
Location: Auburn, CA
Board Member Since: 2014

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by Philip Lawrence » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:30 pm

Oh come on Charley, I myself am starved for good entertainment, let's cast caution to the wind. Go ahead and give us both barrels!

User avatar

KWTownsend
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:51 pm
First Name: Keith
Last Name: Townsend
Location: Gresham, Orygun
MTFCA Number: 14778
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16305
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by KWTownsend » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:41 pm

Back in the 1970's I re-wooded my 1919 touring with plans I bought from Mel Miller. I remember back then I had to sign a statement saying that the plans were for my use only and that I would not copy them.
1919 wood Keith.jpg
Years later, Mel was advertising in the Vintage Ford for plans, and not responding or following through. People were complaining to Jay Klehfoth at MTFCA about them NOT receiving plans. I approached Mel about his plans, maybe having the MTFCA sell and distribute them with a cut to him, or selling out completely and transferring his Copyright. Unfortunately by then he was no longer of sound mind. Years later his daughter, Jennifer, was selling them. I was in contact with her once after Mel was gone and she said that she was going to sell them and carry on the Miller legacy. I think she did for a while, then seemed to follow in her father's footsteps.

Knowing that those plans were getting scarce, I would pick up a set of his plans if I found them at a swap meet, or wherever I found them. I believe he made plans for 1915-1922 touring and runabout, 1923-1925 touring and runabout, and 1914 "conversion" plans. He never did any plans for closed cars.

I don't know what sort of legal details Leon tended to as to not violate the Copyright laws.

I tried twice to get the rights to reproduce and sell his plans. Twice I failed. At this point I will not try again, but Thomas if you wanted to try, please contact Jennifer Miller. I'm sure you could Google some contact information for her, otherwise, contact me for an old e-mail address I have. If you are able to get the rights to the Mel miller plans, I will contribute all I have.
1919 wood front.jpg
: ^ )

Keith


Scott_Conger
Posts: 1563
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:18 pm

Keith

that is good background info and a generous offer.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Topic author
Thomas-Jull
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:12 am
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Jull
Location: Oakland

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by Thomas-Jull » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:28 pm

The plans that I would create would not look like Mel’s. However, The pieces would look the same as that is a Ford design. I did buy the plans from Leon when I made the wood for my car. However, I did discover that some dimensions were missing and they also had some other discrepancies so I would be addressing those too. I also scoured MTFCA for information about replacing the wood and would be using that as a reference as well.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 1563
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:37 pm

Thomas

good luck with the project. Having done some rewooding, I have found that often the drawing discrepancies fall within the ambiguities and peculularities of the different body manufacturers. I don't doubt that you've found some real problems, but just don't assume that what didn't work for you might not work for someone else, regarding old plans (Mel's or others). I think that's the biggest kink in making plans that everyone could follow carte blanche.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Topic author
Thomas-Jull
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:12 am
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Jull
Location: Oakland

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by Thomas-Jull » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:06 pm

Scott - the discrepancies are minor. Overall I was very pleased with his plans. One example of a discrepancy is that the overall side view showed a mortise but the mortise is missing when you go to the specific drawing of that piece. Minor things like that is what I was referring too. I am not saying my drawings will be perfect either but they will be a reference that someone can use.


John kuehn
Posts: 519
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by John kuehn » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:35 pm

I think Thomas makes a good point about the plans being a good reference to make the wood pieces. I bought a set of wood for my 21 Touring from Fordwood and soon discovered some minor fit up issues. They provided some info sheets (not plans) about assembling the wood pieces which mentioned having to trim here and there for a good fit up.
I had emailed Leon Parker about this and that’s when he mentioned that Ford used 4-5 body builders to build the bodies in the 17-22 era.
It became apparent that was the reason why people were having issues getting the wood kits to fit well in their particular car that I thought I was having. Guys would buy a kit and were thinking the wood pieces would just drop in and that was all there was to it. Not So!
The same would go for the plans also and making it known that they are a good reference and the final fitup would depend on the builder. It’s a good point to remember and making it know on the plans would be a good idea. Just my 2 cents worth

User avatar

TonyB
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Tony
Last Name: Bowker
Location: Ramona, CA
MTFCA Number: 32
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by TonyB » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:03 am

I bought a set of wood plans from Mel Miller when I rebuilt the 1917 Touring in the late 1980’s. It was quite successful though I did end up with pile of sawdust about 12” high. So they were NOT drop in. Later I contacted Mel to see if wanted to sell his business and received a not interested reply. A couple of decades later Leon was selling plans which he told me he copied from actual T bodies. Of course Leon has now passed, so who knows what will happen next.
The major problems I found with the plans is that they were two dimensional while the required wood is three dimensional. Many pieces, especially the vertical, have twists in them and are tough to replicate. After wasting some good expensive wood, I made trial pieces out of cheap 2x4’s. I never did get the shape of the rear doors correct☹️ I kept the plans for years but the blue prints faded and became unreadable. I also kept the trial pieces but the whole went to the dump late last year☹️
So I can offer little, except encouragement.
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

User avatar

Will_Vanderburg
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:59 pm
First Name: William
Last Name: Vanderburg
Location: Jackson, NJ
MTFCA Number: 28382

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by Will_Vanderburg » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:39 am

When I did my 24-25 touting, I bought a set of Mel’s plans from someone. It was missing a page. I later bought another from his daughter. However, I didn’t cut a single piece of wood from them except as practice. I actually used them to assemble a Classic Wood Products kit I bought from Bob Bergstadt and had it shipped from Greensboro NC.

I compared the kit to Mel’s plan and they were practically identical.

I still have both sets: one dirty and one pristine.
William L Vanderburg

1925 Touring
1922 Center Door Sedan

User avatar

Will_Vanderburg
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:59 pm
First Name: William
Last Name: Vanderburg
Location: Jackson, NJ
MTFCA Number: 28382

Re: Creation of new rewooding plans?

Post by Will_Vanderburg » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:41 am

With my 22 Center door sedan, I’m drawing my own plan as needed and replicating from there.
William L Vanderburg

1925 Touring
1922 Center Door Sedan

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic