Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

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Dave Loving
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Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Dave Loving » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:51 pm

My 1911 Torpedo has a knock, #4 Rod, What's the conventional wisdom, pull the engine so that it's easy to access or do it with the engine in the car? It looks like a real bear to do in the car!
Thanks,


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:57 pm

Dave

it can be done
each nut can be accessed if the crank journal is offset right/left

make sure rags are used to catch anything that you don't keep control of. You'll undoubtedly have a fist full of loose shims come out. I ALWAYS mike them and put in a single, new, solid pack of shims so as to not wrestle with a bunch of leaves of brass that might make their way into the crank case when reassembling.

Not a fun job, but be thankful it's late enough to have a removable inspection plate.
Scott Conger

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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:26 pm

On top of what Scott said, If you use the rags, be sure to count them and remove them all. Also, Only leave them in while you turn the crankshaft just a bit to get access to the nuts. Note you can turn the crank backward by rotating a rear wheel backward just enough to move the crank enough to get access to the nut. If during your work you want to turn the crankshaft a complete revolution or more such as using timesaver or Prussian Blue, be sure you remove the rags before you turn it and install them again before you remove the nuts. It's a bit of work, but much easier than removing the entire engine.
Norm

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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by HalSched » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:29 pm

Isn't there a special wrench for that job?


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:09 pm

Hal

yes, there is
The FORD tool is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-walden ... SwOSVdapxe

Or is a brace style wrench with a universal joint (cannot find a picture)

There was a gentleman on the Forum just the other day advertising for one to fill out his collection

Walden Worcester made braces and Tee-Flexes for this job (like this): https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Walden ... SwL4ldgDAI
Scott Conger

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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by TonyB » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:16 pm

Many years ago I tried it on the coupe. I failed. After lying on my back for most of the weekend I decided it wasn’t fun. So the next weekend I pulled the motor and did a proper job of it.
In retirement I help folks fix their T’s but I NEVER adjust rods with a three dip pan in the car. Just not fun.
I wish you the best of luck.
Tony Bowker
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1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Chad_Marcheese » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:25 pm

Here was my little write up on it, READ THE WHOLE THREAD. After hearing horror stories of doing it, I did not think it was that bad at all. Having the right tools helps, non of which are Ford tools.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1488134546


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Original Smith » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:20 pm

I've done it. The rod needs to be either at 4 o'clock or 8 o'clock, which ever is comfortable for you. I use plenty of rags as mentioned above. Since removing that rod cap and putting it back on is so difficult, judging by the other three rods, I opt for the same number of shims, only hoping it will come out right, and it did.


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by John kuehn » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:29 pm

Here is what’s in the Ford service manual about adjusting the 4th rod in the old style 3 dip case. It’s not much all you have to do is add 15 minutes to the job!
I used a unjoint socket when I did mine on the Roadster a few years ago. Not real easy but take your time and offset the crankshaft for each side as I remember. And lots of rags to keep things from dropping in.
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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Corey Walker » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:34 pm

I’ve done it as described above but next time I’m going to try this wrench I found at a swap meet to break the nuts loose. That’s the most difficult (to me) part.
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Corey Walker, Brownsboro, Texas


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by John kuehn » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:43 pm

Sorry abt the upside down post dang it! Anyway the Ford Manual says the 4th rod adjustment for the 3 dip pan takes 15 minutes longer. I remember doing the adjustment on my 19 Runabout using a unjoint socket and moving the crankshaft side to side for access to the rod bolts. Wasent real easy but not bad once you do it the second time. It’s on page 101 of the Ford Manual for what’s its worth. Doesn’t mention moving the crankshaft only that it would take a little longer.


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:09 pm

u-joint socket is the only way to go, in my opinion, and depending on the bolts/nuts on the rod, the FORD wrench may not even be the correct size from my experience.

What ever works for you is the way to go, though.
Scott Conger

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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by It's Bill » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:35 am

When I got my 11, I pulled the inspection cover and all the rod caps to check clearances. I was too ignorant to know it was supposed to be a big pain. So I just did it. And it was not a bad job IMO. But, with me you have to remember "Where there's no brain, there's no pain."

Good luck! Bill


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by SurfCityGene » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:10 pm

I've done it a couple of times on my '12 and it's way better that pulling the engine. It's not that bad really, for me is when I get under the car I always forget something and it's out of reach. A major thing to consider is your own hand and finger dexterity and finger size!! If you have extra large fingers which might be old and stiff and not work like they used to then this isn't a great job for you.

A real good tip is to use a wire or better yet a piece of dental floss.
1912 Torpedo Roadster


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by old_charley » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:45 pm

I've done the #4 rod on a 3 dip pan a number of times. I find that cutting a piece of stiff cardboard about 7" wide, slid back to the flywheel and then trimmed to the opening works great. It has caught a nut or shim or two several times. I always remove the wishbone as well. It only takes a couple of minutes and gives much more room to work.

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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Duey_C » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:00 pm

John, it turns up just fine when ya click on it. :)
Chad, I'm glad you linked your thread here, sometime between then and now, I commented about "The Marcheese plate".
An obvious and important task that can be done "in-car",(dare I?) like another job I did in-car that is not supposed to be.
Right now for me, I'd need to tip the car on his side or over! Hmmm, the skid loader would flop him over on his head. :lol:
:roll:
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by wayne sheldon » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:32 pm

Been a long time since I had to do that. (A bad thing because it means I am not driving and enjoying my cars enough.)
I actually have most of the correct era tools, but find a good modern socket set with a U-joint is the best way to go. I leave the number four crank journal in the two or ten o'clock position (depending on which side I am less uncomfortable working from). I find the higher position of the crank easier with the angles and pan clearances, and the slope of the crankshaft gives good enough access around number three rod. Usually, I can do the job without having to move the crankshaft around back and forth. If crank and rod are in good shape, just a bit loose? I use the snap-fit method of adjustment. There should be about a eighth inch clearance forward and back between the rod and crank. I should be able to snap it forward and back with my fingers of one hand. If it moves too easily? I need to remove another shim (or more). If I cannot snap it with one hand? I need to add a shim (Or more?)


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by philip » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:44 pm

I use an offset box and wrench. Nothing to it. Not enough trouble to swap out the
Weaker 4dip pan at rebuild


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Dave Loving » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:12 pm

Thanks guys for all the great advice, After much consternation I was finally able to get the cap off. I made a baffle plate as Chad suggested, stuffed rags in the voids and put 2 magnets on the baffle. I was finally able to get the 1st nut loose. I ended up cutting the end off a 9/16 box wrench to that i could put a "cheater" on the end to get enough leverage to loosen the AirCraft nuts. I have a Counter Balanced Crankshaft which doesn't make access any easier.
So, I get the nut loose and with my fingers work it off, and it slips out of my grasp and goes---------?
I haven't found it yet, not on the magnets, in the rags or anyplace else that I can see, I didn't hear dreaded tinkle tinkle of it falling into the sump. I'm just wondering now if it might be stuck to the flywheel magnets ? I'll look in the morning.
IMG_0105.JPG
Guess I need a new cap! What causes the babbit to disappear like that? Bad pour? This engine was rebuilt less that 3 yrs ago.
If the missing nut can't be found then I guess I'll be pulling the engine.
In fact, I probably need to do that regardless to fit the new rod cap?
Thanks for the help,
Dave


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:36 pm

You're going to need a new rod (probably 4).
That's some bad looking stuff
Scott Conger

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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Dallas Landers » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:54 am

Wow. About how many miles on the engine after rebuild ?


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by Joe Bell » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:23 am

I would pull the engine and check out the rest, also good time to clean out the extra stuff floating around.


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Re: Adjusting #4 ConRod on 3 dip pan?

Post by wayne sheldon » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:15 pm

Oh, nasty!
Do you know where that rod came from? Looks like a bad pour to me. I can't tell from the pictures if the rod wasn't properly tinned? Or bad Babbitt? It could be a loss of oil at some point, but it really doesn't look like it. Regardless, it makes all the bearings suspect.
I always worry about that on my engines. Being forced to do the impossible on a tight budget, I rework old engines. Mix and match rods and blocks and caps. I examine closely for telltale signs, but since I do not know the history of most of those parts, I carefully refit and hope. Usually, my used parts have had enough miles on them that they would have already failed if they had a really bad pour, but one never really knows.

If your rods came from a different source than who may have done the mains? You might consider risking an over the top inspection of all four rods? But the odds are pretty good that you will wind up pulling the engine anyway.

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